Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

[5mn_Major]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Interesting survey on perceptions of Chinese. Many think that secretly the Chinese are aggressive and don't like the US. That's certainly not the case among students. After S Korea, Chinese students have the highest perceptions of the US.

The office of Rep. Koo Sang-chan of the ruling Grand National Party conducted a survey of 935 Chinese college students Aug. 15-31 on their perceptions of China`s relations with the two Koreas and other neighboring countries.

On a scale of 1-10 with ten being the highest score, the students rated North Korea last with 4.94 points and South Korea first with 6.59 points. The U.S. ranked second with 6.53 points and Japan third with 6.34 points.

So in short, I'd say: stylistically different but functionally very similar.

...yet the outcomes have been quite different. And outcomes are what matter most.

Some may not appreciate it...but the overthrow of dictators throughout the middle east and experimentation with Democracy is great progress to where things should be. Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Bahrain, Yemen. These results should not surprise us too much as during the Clinton administration...students took a solid run at liberalizing Iran.

Until the 2008 election, there was no plan to exit Iraq. The administrations have changed and Iraq troop counts have changed from 158,000 during 2008 to less than 40k now (4k expected next year). I'd call that a significant difference.

And yes, there has been progress on AQ bodycount...this shouldn't be ignored.

[LynahFan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Some may not appreciate it...but the overthrow of dictators throughout the middle east and experimentation with Democracy is great progress to where things should be. Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Libya, Bahrain, Yemen. These results should not surprise us too much as during the Clinton administration...students took a solid run at liberalizing Iran.

Obama gets credit for Egypt? When the mass protests began around Jan 25 and he didn't even announce his support until February 10, two weeks later? Um....okay. I guess if you can deserve the Nobel after a month in office, you can retroactively start democracy movements, too.

Until the 2008 election, there was no plan to exit Iraq. The administrations have changed and Iraq troop counts have changed from 158,000 during 2008 to less than 40k now (4k expected next year). I'd call that a significant difference.

Yeah, so much better now that Obama's man, SecDef Gates, ran the military during the first 2 years of Obama's term. I mean things were horrible when Bush's man, SecDef Gates, was running it. We were going to be getting out of Iraq under POTUS XLIV regardless of the letter after his name.

And yes, there has been progress on AQ bodycount...this shouldn't be ignored.

Nobody's ignoring it. Just questioning your implied assertion that the 2009-2011 body count would have been different under President McCain. Do you really think that it would have been?

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I'd award another point to Lynah, but I think 5MM's head would explode

[Priceless]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Obama gets credit for Egypt?

Where was he giving Obama "credit" for Egypt?

[LynahFan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Where was he giving Obama "credit" for Egypt?

I'm really curious how else you would read his post. Please explain?

[Priceless]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I'm really curious how else you would read his post. Please explain?

Some may not appreciate it...but the overthrow of dictators throughout the middle east and experimentation with Democracy is great progress to where things should be.

Sounds to me like he's saying "These things happened." I don't see him giving anyone credit.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Sounds to me like he's saying "These things happened." I don't see him giving anyone credit.

In a conversation about who's assigning what administration credit for what they've done in international conflicts? Really?

[Priceless]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

In a conversation about who's assigning what administration credit for what they've done in international conflicts? Really?

Whatever. Obviously we were better off searching for imaginary WMD in Iraq than anything Obama has done. My apologies.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Whatever. Obviously we were better off searching for imaginary WMD in Iraq than anything Obama has done. My apologies.

Really?! Please point to a post where we said anything to that effect. You just keep swinging and missing today. I'm a bit disappointed. Normally you're on your game.

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

We were going to be getting out of Iraq under POTUS XLIV regardless of the letter after his name.

I don't think this is necessarily true. There is a real difference between the political parties in their preference for military rather than diplomatic solutions, and that would dictate a different philosophy in Iraq. There's even a difference in their approach to intelligence gathering and analysis: Neocons (strongly influential in any GOP administration) run that out of DIA rather than other agencies because they consider all intelligence to be, essentially, field support (and because they tend to mistrust experienced intelligence experts who bring up ideologically embarrassing facts).

[5mn_Major]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Obama gets credit for Egypt? When the mass protests began around Jan 25 and he didn't even announce his support until February 10, two weeks later? Um....okay. I guess if you can deserve the Nobel after a month in office, you can retroactively start democracy movements, too.

Nobody caused the Arab Spring...but there was significant groundwork done here......including an open minded approach to foriegn relations and a groundbreaking speech in Egypt itself. And O has had reserved support for these moves. On the otherhand, a huge number of those in the GOP and those of the previous administration have never supported the democratic movement. Your standards are very high for one side I see.

Yeah, so much better now that Obama's man, SecDef Gates, ran the military during the first 2 years of Obama's term. I mean things were horrible when Bush's man, SecDef Gates, was running it. We were going to be getting out of Iraq under POTUS XLIV regardless of the letter after his name.

Gates doesn't determine whether we're in Iraq or not...he executes the war.

What is your evidence that 'we were going to be out of Iraq' no matter what? Was it that Bush had no exit plan...none...until all the major Dem candidates had one in 2008? Or was it John McCain's consistent prooccupation stance confirmed that with him 'we may have stayed in Iraq for 100 years'?

[Rover]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Exactly right on Egypt. Nobody's giving Obama credit for the overthrow of Mubarak. However it was a diplomatic tightrope to encourage democracy while not somehow being blamed for the chaos and violence going on during the messy transition (which happens all too often to the US). That took some adult leadership which frankly was missing a lot during the previous admin. Obama gets much more credit for Libya, where he abjectly refused to intervene until both invited to by the rebels and the Arab League, again so that the US couldn't be accused of running roughshod over a country unwanted of our help (see Iraq). Not to mention forcing the European wing of NATO to carry their share of the burden for once.

Beyond that though, another great point was about the focus of the two wars. Iraq, the most needless war in US history, took away far too many resources from Afghanistan, a necessary fight. There was no, as in zero, indication any Republican admin was ready to pivot on this. I don't believe a President McCain/Cheney/Romney/Huckleberry would have done the same thing. We'd still be bogged down in Iraq under the guise that chaos would ensue as soon as we left while understaffing Afghanistan (again, where were the GOP proposals to improve our odds there?).

Finally, while some knuckledragger pointed out that drone technology was new in 2001, it wasn't in 2008 yet Bush used this weapon far more sparingly than Obama. Want proof: Check out the list of AQ bad guys bagged in the past three years vs the previous 7 and get back to me. "No difference" indeed - tell that to OBL.

But please, go back to the argument that signing the new START treaty makes the US unable to defend itself from a nuclear attack...

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Exactly right on Egypt. Nobody's giving Obama credit for the overthrow of Mubarak. However it was a diplomatic tightrope to encourage democracy while not somehow being blamed for the chaos and violence going on during the messy transition (which happens all too often to the US). That took some adult leadership which frankly was missing a lot during the previous admin. Obama gets much more credit for Libya, where he abjectly refused to intervene until both invited to by the rebels and the Arab League, again so that the US couldn't be accused of running roughshod over a country unwanted of our help (see Iraq). Not to mention forcing the European wing of NATO to carry their share of the burden for once.

Beyond that though, another great point was about the focus of the two wars. Iraq, the most needless war in US history, took away far too many resources from Afghanistan, a necessary fight. There was no, as in zero, indication any Republican admin was ready to pivot on this. I don't believe a President McCain/Cheney/Romney/Huckleberry would have done the same thing. We'd still be bogged down in Iraq under the guise that chaos would ensue as soon as we left while understaffing Afghanistan (again, where were the GOP proposals to improve our odds there?).

Finally, while some knuckledragger pointed out that drone technology was new in 2001, it wasn't in 2008 yet Bush used this weapon far more sparingly than Obama. Want proof: Check out the list of AQ bad guys bagged in the past three years vs the previous 7 and get back to me. "No difference" indeed - tell that to OBL.

All of this is true, although drone tech has probably improved leading to a lessened probability of innocent deaths. Not that this would have stopped the prior administration -- they were very cavalier about civilian casualties in Iraq, which we will pay for in so many ways for a generation. A GOP president would never have called Iraq a blunder and a scam because it was their blunder and scam. Only a Dem could call it BS and pull the plug.

[Old Pio]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

All of this is true, although drone tech has probably improved leading to a lessened probability of innocent deaths. Not that this would have stopped the prior administration -- they were very cavalier about civilian casualties in Iraq, which we will pay for in so many ways for a generation. A GOP president would never have called Iraq a blunder and a scam because it was their blunder and scam. Only a Dem could call it BS and pull the plug.

"Cavalier about civilian deaths?" That's a GD lie. You'd prefer GI's get killed instead? You've really just reverted to type here lately, haven't you? Arrogant, condescending and untruthful.

As long as we're giving Deadmeat credit for every military success in US history, from Breed's hill to Gettysburg and everything since, why don't we give him credit for liberating Auschwitz? He's claimed his uncle (or was it grandfather?) was there. 'Course that meant the old boy had to be serving in the Red Army, but these are just details for the greatest military leader since Gengis Kahn. Or as John Kerry would pronounce it: Jen jis.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

All of this is true, although drone tech has probably improved leading to a lessened probability of innocent deaths. Not that this would have stopped the prior administration.

And that wasn't even my original point.

The Bush administration's core and constant message was terror, terror, terror, year after year...and supplimented it by playing with the terror alert level. Obama's vastly improved approach to dealing with AQ included considerable success without the need to make it society's top priority.