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  • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Got to love some people

    American Man Shot by Sniper After Going for Bicycle Ride Around Tripoli

    An American activist in Tripoli was shot, apparently by a sniper -- after going for a bicycle ride around the capital as the rebels closed in. Franklin Lamb, director of Americans for Middle East Peace, told NewsCore on Monday of his brush with death a day earlier.

    As he spoke from his room at the Corinthia Hotel he said there was "some bombing, some machine gunfire" continuing in the streets but the situation was otherwise "relatively calm." Lamb, who was born in Oregon, was shot Sunday morning after returning from a bicycle tour of the city.

    "I was out in Tripoli on a bicycle for 90 minutes and when I came back, walking by the swimming pool of this hotel, I was shot in my right leg," he said in a statement to Russia Today. Lamb said that most of the staff at his five-star hotel had failed to show up for work Monday.

    He added that he was none the worse for wear despite having been shot. "I don't know if you've ever been shot in the leg. I never have," Lamb said, according to Russia Today. "I've got painkillers and I've got bandages. I'm okay. I'm lucky the guy didn't hit me in the head.”

    Originally posted by Rover View Post
    Lets all give our props to President Obama for succeeding where Reagan failed and where Bush II refused to go. Khadafi (or however the F he chooses to spell his name this week) was a far worse international supporter of terrorism than anybody not named OBL and right now this admin has bagged both of them. Lets just hope he's smart enough not to take an air force jet onto a carrier sitting in Tripoli harbor.
    Agreed. I think I'd give Obama a B+ on foriegn policy to date (which is great...I'd probably give Reagan a higher grade if Gorby wasn't primarily responsible for ending the cold war). IMO the Obama blemishes is his hanging on to Afghanistan.

    The GOPs track record on Libya has been very mixed. The GOP old guard (the pragmatists) understood we need to stick up for the people...but the balance of the GOP has become too ideological.
    Go Gophers!

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    • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

      Originally posted by joecct View Post
      And what will replace him?? Sometime the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

      Democracy? HAH!! I'll give it 6 months before the strongman / Iman / Ayatollah takes over.
      Khadafi blew up a flight over Scotland with 270 innocent people in it who had nothing to do with middle east politics. Kindly tell me who you think could possibly be worse AND have the ability to assume control of that country? Yikes.
      Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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      • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

        Originally posted by Rover View Post
        Khadafi blew up a flight over Scotland with 270 innocent people in it who had nothing to do with middle east politics. Kindly tell me who you think could possibly be worse AND have the ability to assume control of that country? Yikes.
        How about Mao and his successors? We seem to love them.
        The Shah and what followed? How did that work out?

        And lest we forget:
        Russia shot down a KAL flight. And we did not go after the Kremlin.

        Trust me. It will be worse. There is now a power vacuum where there is no orderly mechanism for succession (outside of the family). There's going to be a bloodbath until the next strongman takes over. Ditto for Syria (if Assad falls).
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        • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

          Originally posted by joecct View Post
          How about Mao and his successors? We seem to love them.
          The Shah and what followed? How did that work out?

          And lest we forget:
          Russia shot down a KAL flight. And we did not go after the Kremlin.

          Trust me. It will be worse. There is now a power vacuum where there is no orderly mechanism for succession (outside of the family). There's going to be a bloodbath until the next strongman takes over. Ditto for Syria (if Assad falls).
          Ummm..no offense, but I'll skip the trusting you part. Mao is going to take over leadership in Libya? I thought he'd been dead for 30 something years? Did you read this on the Drudge site?

          Also nice of you to want to see Assad continue his bloodthirsty rule.

          What you are missing however, and what this admin has done remarkably well, much like the first Bush when the Berlin wall fell, is keeping the US involvement in this uprisings, be it Tunisia, Egypt or Yemen, at a behind the scenes level so the enemies of America can't portray them as a pro western scheme. Much like Poland, East Germany, Hungary, the Baltics, etc etc are much, much better off now than they were under "the devil we know" 20+ years ago, so shall these current countries undergoing a similar desire for self rule. In Libya, its the people, not NATO, with the boots on the ground storming the palace.
          Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

          Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

          "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

          Comment


          • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

            Originally posted by joecct View Post
            How about Mao and his successors? We seem to love them.
            The Shah and what followed? How did that work out?

            And lest we forget:
            Russia shot down a KAL flight. And we did not go after the Kremlin.

            Trust me. It will be worse. There is now a power vacuum where there is no orderly mechanism for succession (outside of the family). There's going to be a bloodbath until the next strongman takes over. Ditto for Syria (if Assad falls).
            Where were these arguments with Saddam under the two Bushes? Funny how then the enemy we knew, and the power vacuum that would arise if they fell, wouldnt be so much of a problem. And spare me the "We have to learn from our mistakes" because nothing in the foreign policy under the last 4 presidents has involved us learning from our (or other's mistakes) mistakes. Where was this idea when we invaded Afghanistan, a country that defeated the friggin USSR?

            And I am sorry, but there is no way keeping despots like Qaddafi in power is a good thing. Could another despot take over? Sure that is always a possibility but the will of the people, and as of now that is what this is, is more important than what is in the best interests of America. If the Libyans want him out and if he gives NATO a reason to support the rebels (which he has for decades) than have at it.

            Under your freaked out, scared as **** view of the world we would have been better off NOT letting Communism/Iron Curtain fall in the Soviet Union because they were the enemy we knew. Yeah I wonder if there is ANYONE who agrees with that? (certainly no one in Eastern Europe I would bet)
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            • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

              Originally posted by Handyman View Post
              Where were these arguments with Saddam under the two Bushes? Funny how then the enemy we knew, and the power vacuum that would arise if they fell, wouldnt be so much of a problem. And spare me the "We have to learn from our mistakes" because nothing in the foreign policy under the last 4 presidents has involved us learning from our (or other's mistakes) mistakes. Where was this idea when we invaded Afghanistan, a country that defeated the friggin USSR?

              And I am sorry, but there is no way keeping despots like Qaddafi in power is a good thing. Could another despot take over? Sure that is always a possibility but the will of the people, and as of now that is what this is, is more important than what is in the best interests of America. If the Libyans want him out and if he gives NATO a reason to support the rebels (which he has for decades) than have at it.

              Under your freaked out, scared as **** view of the world we would have been better off NOT letting Communism/Iron Curtain fall in the Soviet Union because they were the enemy we knew. Yeah I wonder if there is ANYONE who agrees with that? (certainly no one in Eastern Europe I would bet)
              I suspect joecct view on this changes with whatever party is in power. Under the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mantra, Khadafi is now a friend of the right wing for standing up to Obama....

              The same thing happened in Serbia where cons were telling us what a swell guy Slobo Milosevic was and pay no attention to those concentration camps and mass graves over there.
              Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

              Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

              "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

              Comment


              • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                I think I'd give Obama a B+ on foriegn policy to date (which is great...I'd probably give Reagan a higher grade if Gorby wasn't primarily responsible for ending the cold war). IMO the Obama blemishes is his hanging on to Afghanistan.
                Well, if contrast counts for anything Obama gets an A+ just for not being one of the sociopaths who preceded him (see Thread title). But I think Obama has fallen VERY short of expectations. Winding up Iraq in his first term is very good, but he reversed on Gitmo and trials and, for all intents and purposes, the Patriot Act and the rest of the Military-Intelligence Warfare State. Again, it doesn't seem so bad because the Neocons set the bar so impossibly low, but given the state of the economy and the success in getting bin Laden, he's wasted an opportunity to lead the country out of that decade of darkness and shame, and restore our foreign policy as radically as they debased it.
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                • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  Well, if contrast counts for anything Obama gets an A+ just for not being one of the sociopaths who preceded him (see Thread title). But I think Obama has fallen VERY short of expectations. Winding up Iraq in his first term is very good, but he reversed on Gitmo and trials and, for all intents and purposes, the Patriot Act and the rest of the Military-Intelligence Warfare State. Again, it doesn't seem so bad because the Neocons set the bar so impossibly low, but given the state of the economy and the success in getting bin Laden, he's wasted an opportunity to lead the country out of that decade of darkness and shame, and restore our foreign policy as radically as they debased it.
                  Although the points you make are right on...I gotta give him a bit more credit. There's the cracks that you point out...but largely we are on decent terms with most countries and Obama has resisted the urge to find an enemy behind every border. Indeed even the childish ones...Putin's Russia and Iran. Good, bad or indifferent, several major countries have joined the Democracy category...which IMO is something that had to happen in a world of similar global perspective anyways.

                  I think its important to revisit...who would be better and why? If you go back past GHB, you have cold war...and there were massive foriegn policy mistakes made in just maintaining that nightmare.
                  Last edited by 5mn_Major; 08-22-2011, 04:48 PM.
                  Go Gophers!

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                  • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                    Originally posted by Rover View Post
                    I suspect joecct view on this changes with whatever party is in power. Under the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mantra, Khadafi is now a friend of the right wing for standing up to Obama....

                    The same thing happened in Serbia where cons were telling us what a swell guy Slobo Milosevic was and pay no attention to those concentration camps and mass graves over there.
                    Not really. If you want to invade a country, you need to be prepared for the citizenry to be a bit ticked off with an outsider intruding and be prepared to defend yourself against partisan attacks. If the Chinese crossed over the Canadian and Mexican borders with the objective of overthrowing BHO, I'd be right next to Kepler defending Lock 12 from the invaders. If we want a regime change, we do it, not rely on some foreign invader. I wonder if history will have the Iraqi supporters of the USA invasion marked as collaborators/Quislings or heroes?? The winners (and the firing squads) will determine that.

                    On Iraq -- All the 43's cared about was capturing the king and they failed to envision on how to protect the franchise after the king was toppled. To paraphrase the Don in the application of foreign policy "It's business, not personal." And in case of 43, it appears it was personal, and that is not the way to conduct foreign policy. OOPS!

                    However, we're there and the vacuum exists. F democracy - that area is incapable of democracy as we understand it. Put a Benevolent Despot in there that is friendly to us and pray he lives 24 months after we cut the umbilical cord. Ditto with Afghanistan.

                    To back on topic, I wonder what is going to happen to the "Arab Spring" countries? We have one vacuum, about to get another, and possibly a 3rd if Syria topples. Then what? I am not confident that anything that comes out of these revolutions is going to be something that we can write home to mother about.

                    So it comes down to a vision of foreign policy. Does the USA have the right to tell every government how to behave? Do we have the right to correct morally reprehensible acts if they have no bearing on the well being of US citizens or interests? Do we want to actively participate in regime changes or not? The actives have been pretty much in charge for the last 100 years or so. Time will tell if that was (is) the right way to conduct business.
                    CCT '77 & '78
                    4 kids
                    5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                    1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                    • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                      Originally posted by Rover View Post
                      Lets all give our props to President Obama for succeeding where Reagan failed and where Bush II refused to go. Khadafi (or however the F he chooses to spell his name this week) was a far worse international supporter of terrorism than anybody not named OBL and right now this admin has bagged both of them. Lets just hope he's smart enough not to take an air force jet onto a carrier sitting in Tripoli harbor.
                      Don't forget to give props to the "peace movement," which would have gone ape sh*t if Bush had authorized "kinetic military action" against the daffy one. Cindy Sheehan would have committed sepuku. In some ways it's analogous to Nixon's opening to China. He had the anti-communist cred to pull it off. Deadmeat's got the MSM covering for him every step of the way, and lefty "peaceniks" are only concerned about "peace" when a Republican's in the WH. Even so, I tip my hat to BHO.
                      2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                      • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                        Although the points you make are right on...I gotta give him a bit more credit. There's the cracks that you point out...but largely we are on decent terms with most countries and Obama has resisted the urge to find an enemy behind every border. Indeed even the childish ones...Putin's Russia and Iran. Good, bad or indifferent, several major countries have joined the Democracy category...which IMO is something that had to happen in a world of similar global perspective anyways.

                        I think its important to revisit...who would be better and why? If you go back past GHB, you have cold war...and there were massive foriegn policy mistakes made in just maintaining that nightmare.
                        There has never been a benevolent world power, so some of the harkening back to a "golden age" of America's foreign policy is really wishing we were Sweden and it didn't matter what we did. Back when the Swedes were a power, they were a-holes too.

                        Hopefully as the right wing gets their wish and the government is bankrupted, we will decide we're too poor to afford the Empire and let it go. That will take a lot of deprogramming, though, and a third of the country will still get a hard-on every time some demagogue talks about military hardware or whatever the desperate bellicosity of the week is.
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                        • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                          The USA has the right to tell other countries how to behave in regards to 1) if they decide to sponsor or tolerate terrorism, or 2) if they are recipients of foreign aide. That's why the US should cut off funding for Israel. They're a sovereign nation who's policies seem to be drifting apart from the USA's. That's their right, but we need not keep funding them.

                          So in terms of Egypt, there's the potential for a democratic multiparty nation there. There's also billions of American aide propping up the country. Can you say "leverage"? While its true there are few democratic roots in these areas, the same could be said for Eastern Europe. I believe the Baltics had very few years of self rule before WWII/Soviet Union. Hungary was part of a monarchy until WWI and absorbed by the Warsaw Pact after WWII. The list goes on. All of these countries made the transition successfully. The fact that GOP candidates are running away from foreign policy discussions at the speed of light ought to tell you all you need to know about Obama's effectiveness in that arena. When's the last time that happened in a Presidential election?

                          Lastly for Kep, I think your criticisms of Obama's foreign policy are a bit harsh. If anything it would be nice if he'd be as resolute in pursuing his domestic policy as he is in his foreign policy. OBL bagged. START treaty ratified in the face of idiotic opposition. Somali pirates bagged. Devastating drone strikes against Al Qaida. Getting out of Iraq. Turning things around in Afghanistan. Finally toppling Khadafi in Libya. Having three other dictatorships overthrown (Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen) with no backlash against the US (which is almost reflexive over there).

                          Look, I would have liked Gitmo closed by now. He had a strategy and didn't pursue it. There's also no movement in the Isreal-Palestine conflict although there rarely is. Would also like to see some Patriot Act provisions scaled back a bit. All in all though, I completely agree with the B+ assessment in ANY time, not just compared to the last admin.
                          Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                          Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                          "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                          • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                            Al Jazeera English is running live reporting out of Tripoli which is amazing, as usual. They have a reporter right at the front who pops up, runs a quick update, then has to cut off as the position comes under attack. It's the most honest field reporting from a war zone I've seen since Vietnam.
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                            • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                              Originally posted by Rover View Post
                              All in all though, I completely agree with the B+ assessment in ANY time, not just compared to the last admin.
                              Just the fact that since the start of this thread in 2009, its content has been pretty much off topic (not GWOT) is kudos to the govt.
                              Go Gophers!

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                              • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                                Originally posted by Rover View Post
                                There's also no movement in the Isreal-Palestine conflict although there rarely is.
                                Palestine is where US foreign policies go to die. If anything I would like to see the US invest less and less of our international political capital there as time goes on. Israel is an important strategic ally because of the oil, but given the demographics of the area we should always be pushing to develop other strategic allies. The only significant, dependable Muslim ally we had there was Iran under the Shah, and there we learned the terrible mistake of propping up a vicious dictator against all our principles of democracy and self-government.

                                Obama does get full marks for the American response to the Arab Spring, which has been positive but quiet so as to not undermine it in a region that has bitter memories of western colonialism. My main beef with his foreign policy is really the domestic effects of it: the crippling economic damage of a military on steroids and of his (likely inevitable politically, but still depressing) decision to let criminals like Yoo and Cheney ride off into the sunset unpunished.
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