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    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    And one more thing before going to bed...

    If the Washington Post wrote it, it has to be true?? http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z4
    If the president had even gone for a peace deal with the Taliban - much less gotten one - we would be hearing how he had forsaken our troops and "surrendered" to the enemy. Hell, just for renewing a treaty with the Russians we've had since Nixon's days he's been called a traitor. He'd probably be facing Articles of Impeachment instead of reelection.

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  • joecct
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    And one more thing before going to bed...

    If the Washington Post wrote it, it has to be true?? http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z4

    Leave a comment:


  • joecct
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by bronconick View Post
    Syrians shot down a Turkish F-4, Turkey is asking NATO to invoke Article 4.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/24/world/...html?hpt=hp_t2

    Two interesting things. The plane was brought down by flak. That has only a 2-3 mile range, IIRC. That means you're really not where you're supposed to be.

    Second, the BBC's graphic on the plane's alleged flight looks like they were basically leaving it out there as bait to be shot at.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18568412

    *****http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/61094000/gif/_61094872_turkey_syria_map464.gif******

    Basically looks like an excuse to execute a run-around on the Russians in the Security Council by making it a NATO issue.
    May have been bait, but from the graphic it appears the F-4 never crossed into Syrian air space. It could have been an electronic intelligence gathering mission for all we know.

    Leave a comment:


  • bronconick
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Syrians shot down a Turkish F-4, Turkey is asking NATO to invoke Article 4.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/24/world/...html?hpt=hp_t2

    Two interesting things. The plane was brought down by flak. That has only a 2-3 mile range, IIRC. That means you're really not where you're supposed to be.

    Second, the BBC's graphic on the plane's alleged flight looks like they were basically leaving it out there as bait to be shot at.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18568412

    *****http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/61094000/gif/_61094872_turkey_syria_map464.gif******

    Basically looks like an excuse to execute a run-around on the Russians in the Security Council by making it a NATO issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    I've always wondered if we could use "Court Martial" to argue against speed cameras.
    I speak of rights! A machine has none. A man must. My client has the right to face his accuser, and if you do not grant him that right, you have brought us down to the level of the machine! Indeed, you have elevated that machine above us! I ask that my motion be granted. And more than that, gentlemen - in the name of a humanity fading in the shadow of the machine - I demand it. I demand it!

    Leave a comment:


  • joecct
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    This post reminds me of a classic Star Trek episode. Two planets were "at war" and when one of them "attacked" the other with a "missile," grids would light up on a computer screen and people who lived in those areas lined up to go into an extermination chamber. Yes, because "real" war was so messy, they turned it into a game of Battleship instead, except that real people died, voluntarily, so that the antiseptic version could continue.

    Of course Kirk and crew disrupted the scheme and the planets had to make real peace with each other.

    There are two critiques of this US war-by-drone strategy that I've heard that make me stop and think a bit:
    > we are killing these people "merely" so we don't have to take them prisoner; then we can side-step all the issues about what kiind of legal status they should have as prisoners.
    > by killing them instead of capturing them, we lose out on the opportunity to interrogate them and develop better intelligence on how to stop prospective attacks.
    I've always wondered if we could use "Court Martial" to argue against speed cameras.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by MattS View Post
    You should read it. It's well worth the time.
    I actually don't know how I missed it. Between 15 and 18 I swear I read every scifi novel written between 1950 and 1970.

    Leave a comment:


  • MattS
    replied
    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    I like that book.

    The first third of Starship Troopers is good (the "self-teaching" part); then it goes to StupidTown.

    Edit: big brain fart, I was thinking of Battlefield Earth! I've never read Starship Troopers.
    You should read it. It's well worth the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigblue_dl
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    This post reminds me of a classic Star Trek episode. Two planets were "at war" and when one of them "attacked" the other with a "missile," grids would light up on a computer screen and people who lived in those areas lined up to go into an extermination chamber. Yes, because "real" war was so messy, they turned it into a game of Battleship instead, except that real people died, voluntarily, so that the antiseptic version could continue.

    Of course Kirk and crew disrupted the scheme and the planets had to make real peace with each other.

    There are two critiques of this US war-by-drone strategy that I've heard that make me stop and think a bit:
    > we are killing these people "merely" so we don't have to take them prisoner; then we can side-step all the issues about what kiind of legal status they should have as prisoners.
    > by killing them instead of capturing them, we lose out on the opportunity to interrogate them and develop better intelligence on how to stop prospective attacks.
    I'm much more worried about your second critique than the first. I little waterboarding could provide quite a bit of information, we wouldn't want to waste that opportunity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    This post reminds me of a classic Star Trek episode. Two planets were "at war" and when one of them "attacked" the other with a "missile," grids would light up on a computer screen and people who lived in those areas lined up to go into an extermination chamber. Yes, because "real" war was so messy, they turned it into a game of Battleship instead, except that real people died, voluntarily, so that the antiseptic version could continue.

    Of course Kirk and crew disrupted the scheme and the planets had to make real peace with each other.
    I thought of the same episode. The Prime Directive really takes it in the ass that episode.

    Leave a comment:


  • FreshFish
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    There is something about war by drone and/or war by robot that unsettles me. One of the deterrents to war is its horror. When you take away the stench by killing the bad guys from thousands of miles away, it becomes a video game and less horrific and easier to do.

    Killing should be the last resort of the nation-state. Making it easy and antiseptic to one side is wrong.
    This post reminds me of a classic Star Trek episode. Two planets were "at war" and when one of them "attacked" the other with a "missile," grids would light up on a computer screen and people who lived in those areas lined up to go into an extermination chamber. Yes, because "real" war was so messy, they turned it into a game of Battleship instead, except that real people died, voluntarily, so that the antiseptic version could continue.

    Of course Kirk and crew disrupted the scheme and the planets had to make real peace with each other.

    There are two critiques of this US war-by-drone strategy that I've heard that make me stop and think a bit:
    > we are killing these people "merely" so we don't have to take them prisoner; then we can side-step all the issues about what kiind of legal status they should have as prisoners.
    > by killing them instead of capturing them, we lose out on the opportunity to interrogate them and develop better intelligence on how to stop prospective attacks.
    Last edited by FreshFish; 06-06-2012, 08:50 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by MattS View Post
    And then read The Forever War immediately afterwards. It will give one a great contrasting perspective on war and service.
    I like that book.

    The first third of Starship Troopers is good (the "self-teaching" part); then it goes to StupidTown.

    Edit: big brain fart, I was thinking of Battlefield Earth! I've never read Starship Troopers.
    Last edited by Kepler; 06-06-2012, 08:43 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MattS
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    Read the book, burn the movie.
    And then read The Forever War immediately afterwards. It will give one a great contrasting perspective on war and service.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigblue_dl
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    Read the book, burn the movie.
    From my personal experience, it is much more rewarding to see boobs than to read about them.

    Leave a comment:


  • joecct
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    Co-Ed Naked showers?
    Read the book, burn the movie.

    Leave a comment:

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