Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

[Kepler]

Please continue.

[Nathan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

We're still talking about this? Seriously?

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

We're still talking about this? Seriously?

GWOT? We're still fighting it, right?

[Nathan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

GWOT? We're still fighting it, right?

Are we? Really?

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Are we? Really?

Afghanis, Pakistanis, coalition troops, US taxpayers, and anybody who waits in line at the airport thinks so.

Edit: I haven't followed many of these links, but this guy has aggregated the most recent news, considering CNN and Fox are too busy with MJ's funeral to cover such minor matters.

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Long Term debate:
Isolationism vs. World's Cop. Wish I knew the answer. However, if I was in charge.....

I would call Bejing and ask them if they want a puppet state above the 38th parallel and below Manchuria. If they said yes, I say, I'm not stopping you as long as you stay on your side of the line. The way I figure it, about 100 people have to disappear and all will be copacetic in Korea.

I don't think anyone wants a crazy nuke capable country sitting just south of my border and abutting major trading partners. Very bad for the bottom line, you know.

As to Al Qaeda, keep them running and let them discredit themselves. Try not to make Osama a martyr. Hopefully a run of spectacular failures will eventuallty cause this movement to collapse upon itself. We're not going to get rid of radical Islam by ourselves. They mullahs will have to do that.

Is Democracy for everyone? Do many care, or will the benevolent despot work as long as there is a decent standard of living? Democracy works for us and for many other countries, but is it for everyone?

[French Rage]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Is Democracy for everyone? Do many care, or will the benevolent despot work as long as there is a decent standard of living? Democracy works for us and for many other countries, but is it for everyone?

To me, the question isn't as much is it for everyone, as much as is it for everyone right now? In theory a government where all voices are heard is for everyone regardless of the specific form it takes (i.e. number of branches, all of those details). But people also aren't ready overnight, regardless of how much one tries to impose it on people; people needs to live and learn, and have some experiments with dispersing power too broadly or concentrating it too closely to know why those are bad ideas so they don't do it again. I mean, look at England from the Magna Carta almost 800 years ago to the full representation of the last century or so and note how many hiccups and refinements it takes.

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

To me, the question isn't as much is it for everyone, as much as is it for everyone right now? In theory a government where all voices are heard is for everyone regardless of the specific form it takes (i.e. number of branches, all of those details). But people also aren't ready overnight, regardless of how much one tries to impose it on people; people needs to live and learn, and have some experiments with dispersing power too broadly or concentrating it too closely to know why those are bad ideas so they don't do it again. I mean, look at England from the Magna Carta almost 800 years ago to the full representation of the last century or so and note how many hiccups and refinements it takes.

Excatly, so why do we want the full blown 21st Century version for the world, when government Mark 13 may be the better solution?

[Nathan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Afghanis, Pakistanis, coalition troops, US taxpayers, and anybody who waits in line at the airport thinks so.

Edit: I haven't followed many of these links, but this guy has aggregated the most recent news, considering CNN and Fox are too busy with MJ's funeral to cover such minor matters.

I don't care about the war on terror. I don't care about the middle east or korea or muslim extremists. I don't care about TSA lines or new checkpoints for crossing into Canada.

[pirate]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

To me, the question isn't as much is it for everyone, as much as is it for everyone right now? In theory a government where all voices are heard is for everyone regardless of the specific form it takes (i.e. number of branches, all of those details). But people also aren't ready overnight, regardless of how much one tries to impose it on people; people needs to live and learn, and have some experiments with dispersing power too broadly or concentrating it too closely to know why those are bad ideas so they don't do it again. I mean, look at England from the Magna Carta almost 800 years ago to the full representation of the last century or so and note how many hiccups and refinements it takes.

And we had the opportunity to start anew (a la Japanese manufacturing after WWII) so we bypassed some of the evolution. But, if we look at Europe now, is that us in 50 years? 100 years?

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Long Term debate:
Isolationism vs. World's Cop. Wish I knew the answer. However, if I was in charge.....

I would call Bejing and ask them if they want a puppet state above the 38th parallel and below Manchuria. If they said yes, I say, I'm not stopping you as long as you stay on your side of the line. The way I figure it, about 100 people have to disappear and all will be copacetic in Korea.

Ideally, the North Koreans would do it themselves. To be honest it wouldn't even take an invasion -- Beijing could probably get that result by making a handful of phone calls to the North Korean DOD. No General wants to lose his pension.

I don't think anyone wants a crazy nuke capable country sitting just south of my border and abutting major trading partners. Very bad for the bottom line, you know.

Wait, Mexico is getting the bomb?

As to Al Qaeda, keep them running and let them discredit themselves. Try not to make Osama a martyr. Hopefully a run of spectacular failures will eventuallty cause this movement to collapse upon itself. We're not going to get rid of radical Islam by ourselves. They mullahs will have to do that.

I think there's a lot of truth here. "Keep them running" needs to be balanced against the fact that every time a Tomahawk crashes Akmed's wedding, we turn another village of 25,000 into suicide bombers.

Is Democracy for everyone? Do many care, or will the benevolent despot work as long as there is a decent standard of living? Democracy works for us and for many other countries, but is it for everyone?

Democracy is a double-edged sword. Unless we do something about the Arab world wanting to kill us, real politic would dictate that we keep propping up the House of Saud and Mubarek against their own people. And a genuinely democratic Pakistan? Imagine Alabama with the bomb.

[French Rage]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Excatly, so why do we want the full blown 21st Century version for the world, when government Mark 13 may be the better solution?

Well, we have the experience of 200 years, along with several hundred more years borrowed from England, to know what works for us. We know we don't want any more kings or Lord Protectors, but we also know we need something a little more than the Articles of Confederation. But no one automatically knew that from the start, it took time to learn that. Early on a king making all of the decisions sounds nice, compared to wishy-washy legislatures who have to comprimise, but over time you learn why autocrats are bad and you also learn how to fine tune democratic governments to work for you (despite the usual complaints about Congress and the like).

I mean, take any third world countries where they've tried to set up a democracy and a year later you end up with a strongman or a coup taking power. It seems like a good idea there to a lot of people because now things will "get done". Of course, things rarely do, but frankly (and sadly) that has to happen a bunch before people learn. They need to have it drilled in that strongmen won't get the job done, and they need to rework their government until it works for them. Simply plopping people down into a system of government that society is not ready for will not produce the same results as elsewhere.

[French Rage]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

And we had the opportunity to start anew (a la Japanese manufacturing after WWII) so we bypassed some of the evolution. But, if we look at Europe now, is that us in 50 years? 100 years?

I don't know if Europe is necessarily ahead of us. I mean, you could argue we've only been here for 200+ years whereas most of theose countries have had much longer, but I think that ignores what we inherited from England, which is in most ways our past too. And frankly England was usually taking the lead in less autocratic forms of government, so all in all I don't see Old Europe as ahead of us (not that they're necessarily behind us, I don't see this as quantifiably measurable).

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Imagine Alabama with the bomb.

That's a job for the SEC.....

[French Rage]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

That's a job for the SEC.....

I think he means Andre Smith in a few years.