The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

You realize we're talking about women, right? They aren't exactly known for being all rational about everything.

Fair point.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Instead it should use force to steal it That turns the rest of us into serfs of the state.

Too funny. You're hilarious.

I agree with unofan. MOVE TO RWANDA. Don't let the door hit you in the patootie on the way out.

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Oops. Mike Pence (R-IN) has pulled ahead in the "smooth move" competition (for now) by delivering this quote at literally the same moment Boehner was saying the shutdown had nothing to do with Planned Parenthood.

WILLIE GEIST (CO-HOST): Are you willing to hold up this entire budget over defunding Planned Parenthood?

PENCE: Well— well of course I am. I think the American people have begun to learn that the largest abortion provider in the country is also the largest recipient of federal funding under Title X, and they want to see that come to an end. I think there's a broad consensus in this country, regardless of where you stand on the subject of abortion, there's a broad consensus for decades now opposing public funding of abortion and abortion providers. ... We're going to dig in and we're going to fight for the principle that taxpayers should not have to subsidize the largest abortion provider in the country, namely Planned Parenthood of America.

Since there is still more than 9 hours to go until the deadline, someone else from either side may snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by stepping on his own talking point even more spectacularly.

But Pence has really set the bar high.

For the record, I don't believe the shutdown has the slightest thing to do with Planned Parenthood or fiscal restraint. It's a straight-up four-handed poker game between Obama, the Republican Leadership, the Dem House Members, and the Freshman Republican Class.

And I have a feeling if the Freshman Republican Class goes down in flames the Republican Leadership won't lose any sleep over it.

Crash Davis: Why are you shaking me off?
Ebby Calvin LaLoosh: I want to give him the heat and announce my presence with authority!
Crash Davis: Announce your fucking presence with authority? This guy is a first ball, fast ball hitter!
Ebby Calvin LaLoosh: Well he hasn't seen my heat!
Crash Davis: [pauses] Alright meat. Show him your heat.
[Walks back towards the box]
Crash Davis: [to the batter] Fast ball.

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Or I could pay taxes for services that truly are public good; meaning that everyone benefits from them.

Believe it or not...that's close to where we're at today.

Much of government work to create the public good is to make society work correctly. To do that, you need the bottom half of society participate in society...otherwise you've got far more problems. Believe it or not, we're probably not too far from an optimum equalibrium of services distribution for a smooth running society.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

For the record, I don't believe the shutdown has the slightest thing to do with Planned Parenthood.

I couldn't disagree more. IT HAS everything to do with Planned Parenthood. If that wasn't in the bill the Dems would cave like they always do. If that isn't in the bill the Republicans won't support it.

Thus the impasse.

[bronconick]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

As is, PP's money is forbidden to be used for abortion. Since the Republicans undoubtedly assume that since money is fungible, any federal money is automatically killing teh babby's, the Democrats should counter with defunding any aid to churches and religious groups and ending all tax-exempt status for them, since my federal money is fungible and being used for nutcases to proselytize, something I oppose as much as any pro-life person opposes abortion.

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Then let them raise their own money.

You feel the same way about oil companies?

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

As is, PP's money is forbidden to be used for abortion. Since the Republicans undoubtedly assume that since money is fungible, any federal money is automatically killing teh babby's, the Democrats should counter with defunding any aid to churches and religious groups and ending all tax-exempt status for them, since my federal money is fungible and being used for nutcases to proselytize, something I oppose as much as any pro-life person opposes abortion.

Just out of curiosity, what aid do you know of that goes to churches? I'm aware of the tax exempt status (and I agree there are abuses of that at times), but I wasn't familiar that the federal government was handing out aid to fund churches, and certainly not to any sizable degree. Thanks.

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Just out of curiosity, what aid do you know of that goes to churches? I'm aware of the tax exempt status (and I agree there are abuses of that at times), but I wasn't familiar that the federal government was handing out aid to fund churches, and certainly not to any sizable degree. Thanks.

Where do you think the money for "faith based initiatives" goes?

Oh, and for example:
Liberty University gets more money than all of NPR
Get federal money for church renovations

"The government gave more than $1 billion in 2003 to organizations it considers 'faith-based,' with some going to programs where prayer and spiritual guidance are central…" recently reported Laura Meckler, AP writer.

Green churches to receive federal funds

I can get more, but once again I have to leave for a bit. Educating you is tiring work.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Just out of curiosity, what aid do you know of that goes to churches? I'm aware of the tax exempt status (and I agree there are abuses of that at times), but I wasn't familiar that the federal government was handing out aid to fund churches, and certainly not to any sizable degree. Thanks.

Well, Google is amazing.

This is from 2004.

The suit by Americans United for Separation of Church and State challenges the constitutionality of the California Missions Preservation Act, which Bush signed into law on Tuesday. It provides $10 million to restore 21 architecturally and historically significant churches, 19 of which have active Roman Catholic congregations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Dec2.html

There's 10 million. You want to gamble that I can't find more?

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Where do you think the money for "faith based initiatives" goes?

charitable activities

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Well, Google is amazing.

This is from 2004.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Dec2.html

There's 10 million. You want to gamble that I can't find more?

Money in this country goes to restore all sorts of historical and architecturally significant properties, both religious and not. Seems kind of equitable. Really, if that's the worst you can find, that's pretty weak stuff.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Just out of curiosity, what aid do you know of that goes to churches? I'm aware of the tax exempt status (and I agree there are abuses of that at times), but I wasn't familiar that the federal government was handing out aid to fund churches, and certainly not to any sizable degree. Thanks.

Yeah, nothing is sizable unless it's planned parenthood or NPR or some other psycho liberal cause. Then it's the government stealing money from the taxpayers.

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

I couldn't disagree more. IT HAS everything to do with Planned Parenthood. If that wasn't in the bill the Dems would cave like they always do. If that isn't in the bill the Republicans won't support it.

Thus the impasse.

Sorry Scoob, but this time you're falling for the false narrative. Obama and the Dem members didn't suddenly grow balls because PP funding is at stake. They realize that if they let the "Know Nothings" steamroll them here they will have zero leverage with the GOP leadership when the real fight happens over the debt ceiling and further cuts. This is about bringing a few members who won't play ball into the game. In that sense, it is genuinely about betraying the TP (and the GOP will be willing to go along because there is no way for them to win a national election unless their radicals learn the Republican playbook: cuts are for speeches, not policy). And if that sounds sad for all of us, it's because it is.

It's a shame the first rhetoric in favor of fiscal restraint in years (yes, Congressman Paul, outside of you, now please wait quietly with your tinfoil hat at the Fed door) is just an empty bluff by some empty heads who learned everything they know about civics from Glenn Beck. It's a little like your first round draft pick turning out to be a serial rapist. Very bad news but he's still got to be put down for everybody's good.

As for the purported fiscal message -- oh please. This is a dry run. The actual chips on the table are a joke. $66 billion in cuts? For chrissakes, the government leaves that as a tip after lunch. Both sides are being utterly disingenuous to rile up their respective bases -- they are only willing to "go to the wall" because of the downstream political effects. It's about their chops on the Hill -- very important to them, but in no way indicative of anything for us.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - The first Orange-American to be elected Speaker

Sorry Scoob, but this time you're falling for the false narrative. Obama and the Dem members didn't suddenly grow balls because PP funding is at stake. They realize that if they let the "Know Nothings" steamroll them here they will have zero leverage with the GOP leadership when the real fight happens over the debt ceiling and further cuts. This is about bringing a few members who won't play ball into the game. In that sense, it is genuinely about betraying the TP (and the GOP will be willing to go along because there is no way forn them to win a national election unless their radicals learn their place: cuts are for speeches, not policy). And if that sounds sad for all of us, it's because it is.

This is a dry run. The actually chips on the table are a joke. $66 billion in cuts? For chrissakes, the government leaves that as a tip after lunch. Both sides are being utterly disingenuous to rile up their respective bases -- they are only willing to "go to the wall" because of the downstream political effects. It's about their chops on the Hill -- very important to them, but in no way indicative of anything for us.

Still disagree. Cutting Planned Parenthood is just about the same as overturning Roe Vs. Wade. It's the only issue the Dems EVER show any backbone on. I bet dollars to doughnuts that if that wasn't in this bill the Dems would have caved without even blinking.