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PHF Purchased, Teams to Be Folded Into New PWHPA League

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  • #76
    Originally posted by HockeyGuy362 View Post

    How are they affording all this. Housing allowance, $23k per player, 6 teams, 28 players per team(with practice players). 23,000*6*28=$3,864,000 in housing allowance alone. Salaries are $1,100,000 per team, or $6,600,000 total. So combined, before meal stipend, moving allowances, health insurance, travel costs, coaches, staffing, they are at $10,464,000, am I doing my math correctly?
    Specifically, the housing allowance is probably about $7,500 per player this first year, I think ($1,500 per month starting in the preseason, Nov 2023, going through about the month the season ends - March 2024?). The salaries per team may be a bit more, though, with a $55k average for 23 players, along with $15k each for 5 players: I believe $1.34 million per team.

    On Lindsay's point about sponsorships and TV, I think that these are mentioned in the interview too as ways to make a profit even the next couple years, after some large investment.
    Last edited by BowWowWow; 07-19-2023, 01:32 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Lindsay View Post
      The women have an 8 year CBA signed with his company.

      So, and I’m not being a smart *** when I say this because I’m not a union guru—— but I think the signed CBA means this has to be supported for 8 years. And so for 8 years the women don’t have to worry about their league folding/ dissolving overnight which has happened maybe 4 times in the last 2 decades (old nw, wwhl, cwhl, PHF).
      The league could declare bankruptcy, and that would most likely nullify the CBA. I'd be shocked if the league isn't incorporated as a separate entity from the Walters' other holdings and their personal wealth. One of the major benefits of a corporate structure is limited liability. A corporation's shareholders are never on the hook for more than the money they have already invested in a corporation. The only significant exception to that is if they take out a loan and the creditors ask for a personal guarantee, but that doesn't apply to a collective bargaining agreement.

      They can stop worrying about the league folding only to the extent that they trust Walters to throw in more money if there are problems, but he's under no legal obligation to do so, unless the league is not incorporated, and he doesn't have limited liability.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Still Eeyore View Post

        The league could declare bankruptcy, and that would most likely nullify the CBA.

        They can stop worrying about the league folding only to the extent that they trust Walters to throw in more money if there are problems, but he's under no legal obligation to do so, unless the league is not incorporated, and he doesn't have limited liability.
        Ahh very helpful on the above, thanks Eeyore. Understood it will be done separately from other holdings and personal wealth, my point is simply that there is money there if it is needed, and as you have clarified, if the Walters want to keep supporting.
        Last edited by Lindsay; 07-19-2023, 01:46 PM.

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        • #79
          I'd be willing to bet that the non-gate revenue for the league amounts (and will in the future) to very little additional revenue. As reference, all other non-NHL leagues are very heavily gate-dependent for revenue. Even the NHL has a large gate component. Their TV contracts are no where on the level of the NFL, NBA, etc. The finances of this league is no different than before. The only way this league stays afloat with the expenses they have is a deep-pocketed benefactor of some kind. How long they are willing to fund for whatever return they are expecting is to be seen. As so well documented above, those salaries far exceed what anyone in the ECHL makes, and is even good for a lot of AHL players. Those leagues draw on average about 4000 fans a game, and even with that, a lot of ECHL teams operate at a loss (it is more of a vanity project for the owner than an actual business).

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          • #80
            Thanks very much for the comparisons, Cornholio. I agree that it is especially useful to look at other hockey leagues.

            As far as other sports with women's leagues, the annual sponsorship revenue of the National Women's Soccer League is estimated around $26 million (according to this GlobalData summary - not that I'm sure what that source is or what they say about TV deals or gate revenue!). Of course, that is a well-established league with 12 teams.

            According to The Hockey News' Ian Kennedy, ownership is telling players that cities are expected to be chosen for the new hockey league later this week. Hailey Salvian also gave a SportsNet Today interview in which at the end she anticipated either an entry draft or drafting some players and deciding other destinations by free agency.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Cornholio View Post
              I'd be willing to bet that the non-gate revenue for the league amounts (and will in the future) to very little additional revenue. As reference, all other non-NHL leagues are very heavily gate-dependent for revenue. Even the NHL has a large gate component. Their TV contracts are no where on the level of the NFL, NBA, etc. The finances of this league is no different than before. The only way this league stays afloat with the expenses they have is a deep-pocketed benefactor of some kind. How long they are willing to fund for whatever return they are expecting is to be seen. As so well documented above, those salaries far exceed what anyone in the ECHL makes, and is even good for a lot of AHL players. Those leagues draw on average about 4000 fans a game, and even with that, a lot of ECHL teams operate at a loss (it is more of a vanity project for the owner than an actual business).
              Agree they need a deep pocketed benefactor, and as resident wishful thinker I feel comfortable they have that for 8 years. :-)

              Im excited to see though the sponsorship dollars. I think there is tremendous potential there considering a few different things. Wnba revenue has doubled since 2019, now at about $200 million per year according to JWS. Arnone ‘s comments raise eye brows as well, ESG push may generate some dollars. I also just look at my own middle class household - my 9 year old asked me the other day if there was major league for softball; this morning she sat down and watched the World Cup for 20 minutes before starting her day….I also see how when she gets exposed to pro/national team/high school girl athletes she inevitably writes about it in her school journals, draws pictures about it or sets goals for herself! It is amazing and valuable. There has got to be some opportunity there for investors.

              2 things I think a new pro hockey league needs to do to be different than the past:

              1- get womens sports into the ESG conversation. There is consulting and lectures every day across the business world about this. They present about inclusivity related to race/gender/sexual orientation /disabilities….and they do sort of tie it to tangible actions companies can take but women’s sport needs to find a way to get supporting women’s sport included as a tangible action. What I see is well meaning companies sending their women to generic “women’s conferences.” It’s well intentioned but for me personally it’s more impactful to simply immerse myself in women’s sport fandom, a landscape that centers, celebrates, and gives a platform and voice to women and men who support women. Women’s sport is rich with bold, intelligent, ambitious, generous and innovative people…it’s healthy and Entertaining to be exposed to, imo.

              2- Every kid, especially the girls, enrolled in USA Hockey and Hockey Canada needs to know about this league. There is no way on earth they all knew about the PHF or other leagues. It’s a major source of lost revenue and detrimental to the kids who don’t have visible role models. Almost 200,000 girls and women in the 2 federations. There’s a potential for millions of dollars in revenue in that crowd right there, if the various parties can work together. Not everyone will live near a women’s pro team but when I was a kid I didn’t live near an nhl team and I still had nhl sheets, hat, poster, books, jersey, movies, cards, read about the Canucks in the paper, and saw hockey on tv every Saturday night. There has got to be a way on the women’s side to get visible and generate revenue. If the federations and pro league worked together (like what the federations and NHL do) it would be win win.


              So, definitely think a deep pocketed benefactor is necessary . But it’s an exciting time in womens hockey for sure. Women’s World Cup is 2 days in and already breaking attendance records. The next month will provide a ton of commentary on women’s sport, hockey would be so foolish to think nah, we can’t be part of that positive change.

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              • #82
                Here is a quick update on signings in Europe since the PHF sale. Now four players who were signed with the Metropolitan Riveters out of university have firmed up contracts in the SDHL. One team, SDE, signed both Naomi Rogge (F, Eden Prairie, MN - UMD) and Lauren Dabrowski (D, Tiny, ON - Lindenwood/St. Francis Xavier, USports). Anneke Linser (F, Lino Lakes, MN - UMD) has signed with Djurgardens. Emma Seitz (D, New York, NY - Yale) has signed with MoDo. Seitz's contract is based on the option to be two years. She will attend the USA National Festival before joining the team in Ornskoldsvik.

                Two other players out of college, Gabby Jones (F, Westfield, MA - Merrimack/UNH) and Emily Pinto (F, Mississauga, ON - Mercyhurst/UNH) signed with SDE.

                I am very happy for these players who have plans for spending August with their teams and for playing in the fall.

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                • #83
                  https://chl.ca/ohl-petes/longtime-pe...hockey-league/

                  Huh. Is it crazy to think Peterborough would get a women’s pro team?

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                  • #84
                    I think they are talking about him accepting a role with the new women’s league, but the games (tickets) they are taking about are for the OHL Peterborough Petes (?)

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by slapshot willy View Post
                      I think they are talking about him accepting a role with the new women’s league, but the games (tickets) they are taking about are for the OHL Peterborough Petes (?)
                      Yes you are right. I misread it to say he took a job with a new women’s hockey TEAM and that he and his family were staying in Peterborough.


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                      • #86
                        https://thehockeynews.com/womens/pwh...iod-set-to-end

                        Kennedy hints the locations will be Toronto, Montreal, London ON, Boston, NYC, and Washington.

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                        • #87
                          Shocked there’s no MN. The only team really that sold out in the States. They must be counting on the uptick in talent to really sell out barns then. Travel just was too expensive I suppose.

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                          • #88
                            Brutal if true.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Lindsay View Post
                              https://thehockeynews.com/womens/pwh...iod-set-to-end

                              Kennedy hints the locations will be Toronto, Montreal, London ON, Boston, NYC, and Washington.
                              I think he is incorrect. Remove NYC and add Mpls is what I have heard. With all the national team players in town, pretty sure they will have one in Mpls.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by HockeyGuy362 View Post

                                I think he is incorrect. Remove NYC and add Mpls is what I have heard. With all the national team players in town, pretty sure they will have one in Mpls.
                                if you are right, it’s fitting that I would learn Minnesota is getting a team on this board. Thank you for sharing.

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