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Ohio State Buckeyes 2022-2023 ... The Drive For Duluth

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  • Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post

    Personally I no longer believe there is a right compromise. Figure out the perfect number of seats for the Women's program, and build the new rink accordingly.

    Repeating For Emphasis: Figure out the perfect number of seats for the Women's program, and build the new rink accordingly.
    clapping emoji for this! Plainly stated this is exactly what they should do.

    Perhaps the OSU obligation starts and ends with looking after their student athletes (or maybe it doesn’t) but here are a couple other things I think about:

    girls wrestling became OHSAA sanctioned this year and just like that (snaps fingers) the girls state championship will be held in the same nice facility as the boys. That’s great for the girls. I’m happy for the kids even though wrestling is not something I know anything about. I wonder why that equality always seems to drag when it comes to hockey? I just don’t get it, but I hope we can keep moving. Not saying put the girls in a huge building; I’m saying figure out what’s right and build it, finally.

    I’m curious about the impact winning a national championship and having a first class rink can have on the growth of girls hockey in a state. Again - this is not OSU’s responsibility, but I wonder if there’s evidence of the championships or construction of a decent rink driving girls hockey enrollment in a state, or in Clarkson’s case, a town or region. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my part but it feels like the success of Ohio State women’s hockey should be a driving factor in growing girls hockey in the state. Holding off on addressing the rink issue seems like a hindrance. I recall (I think) TTT referring to Ridder as a women’s hockey Mecca. How amazing if Ohio State might have their own version of such a rink, for Ohio girls to visit, cheer, and dream in.

    nhl.com had another recent article about the revived aaa girls blue jackets team and referenced the Ohio State natty as energizing that program. Love to see it…




    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hockeybuckeye View Post
      OSU is probably the most well funded athletic program in the conference. There's no reason that I can think of that they couldn't afford to build a dual ice arena with the larger seating capacity for the men's side.
      Of course that would be a dream come true. Essentially you're saying build a new "Mariucci" for the Men, and a new "Ridder" for the Women. But I'm focused on what's doable. My crystal ball says that just isn't happening. Still, it's not wrong to dream; sometimes dreams become reality. Maybe my crystal ball is too pessimistic.

      Then there would be the debate of how much seating for the women's. A number of people have the mindset it's best to be small enough to have sellouts, well we have that now don't we? Why people lament that people are turned away at the door then you have to have a facility large enough so that doesn't happen so that means sellouts won't happen. You can't have it both ways.
      Agreed that you can't have it both ways. And I hope the disagreement between us is always respectful. But I despise the "ocean of empty seats." My ideal set-up is a near sellouts for most games, hard sellouts for the biggest games. Can reasonable people differ? Of course. But will I ever change my mind, and opt for the "laid back living room" atmosphere of a facility that's much too large for normal games? I will not.

      The problem with the number of seats at the Ice Rink is not that it's designed for sellouts. The problem is that it's literally too small. At least when the team is contending for a National Title and tickets are free. FWIW.

      Now I would certainly agree that 900 seats (or whatever the absolute maximum is currently) is too small for a new Women's Hockey Rink. At the other end of the spectrum, note that Ridder's capacity is 3,400 seats -- as per D2D. For me, that would be the absolute highest I would want to go for the Women's team. More numbers soon.

      I would advocate for an arena large enough that we would be awarded hosting WCHA tournament finals...
      The WCHA Final Face-Off doesn't currently rotate. And don't forget we are a geographic outlier in our conference, far removed from at least six of our conference mates. Wisconsin is the only school that's readily driveable from Columbus.

      Another geographic point, when starting out from the Minnesota schools, Madison is only 1/3 or 1/2 of the way to Columbus. If the Final Face-Off won't rotate to Madison, what makes you think it would rotate all the way to Columbus?

      But suppose it was held here. The event would have a major challenge in terms of attracting fans of the traveling teams. Let's say we wind up building a rink that seats 2,150. I'm not settled on that number, it's simply halfway between 900 & 3,400. 2,150 seats would accommodate a "one-off" Final Face-Off, IMHO.

      ... and NCAA tournament rounds. That would in my opinion be more advantageous for our program than always being at capacity.
      The most committed fans will make it to NCAA regional games. But those games are played on 4 days notice, precluding large contingents of visiting fans. And because of the inevitable conflicts with Hoops March Madness, you aren't going to get the local casual fans. Frozen Four? Similar analysis. Though at least for a FF, neutral fans can plan well in advance.

      But in either case, the arbitrary 2,150 seats would likely be enough. The 3,400 number certainly would be. And what about a once in a lifetime event where 3,400 is much too small? The 8,000 - 9,000 configuration at the Schott would be available.

      On a side note, if they quit scheduling the women's home games overlapping the men's we would have more fans in a larger building!
      Of course I strongly agree with this. Good to conclude on a note of agreement.

      Comment


      • This team needs a new rink...luckily Nadine has done a great job with what they have, but come on in order to keep competing at this level they are at they need to win some recruiting battles. This rink doesn't get it done. This should be a slam dunk for any recruit that comes to campus, but the rink hurts them.

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        • New Arena

          Several articles that came out December 2019, then covid hit.

          Summary:
          (1) men stay at Schott
          (2) Rink for women games. Both practice at new rink
          (3) 4000 capacity

          But these are over 3 years ago. Who knows what will be decided?

          https://www.athleticbusiness.com/fac...ockey-facility

          https://www.buckeyesports.com/osu-wo...ity/?print=pdf

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bkruczynski View Post
            New Arena

            Several articles that came out December 2019, then covid hit.

            Summary:
            (1) men stay at Schott
            (2) Rink for women games. Both practice at new rink
            (3) 4000 capacity

            But these are over 3 years ago. Who knows what will be decided?

            https://www.athleticbusiness.com/fac...ockey-facility

            https://www.buckeyesports.com/osu-wo...ity/?print=pdf

            it’s under paywall but in April 2020 another article was published at bizjoirnals.com on this topic saying they were going ahead with a study. But it was greatly pared down from what you describe, as I remember it. Even the very diplomatic Alison Lukan tweeted at the time as much. It was very much a practice rink, which would be home to women’s games. The Ohio State leadership said in an article in Athletic basically the student athlete areas would be top notch but I got the sense they didn’t care about much beyond that. Which is a shame for fans, and by extension the student athletes. So this is where Muzerall is going to have to really advocate for her program, unless the mentality has changed.

            Comment


            • I think 6-7K is about right for the men. The Schott is always available if the AD thinks it can get a 10K crowd out for the weekend. When the program sucks, it still averages around 4K, so a 6500 seat arena wouldn't look empty in the worst of years.

              For the women, I think 2500‐3000 hits the sweet spot.

              Barring a real commitment on the part of a new AD, I guess I'd settled for just the new women's rink. Ohio State's whale donors generally don't focus on the athletic doeartment at all historically, so I don’t ever see a Pegula dropping out of the sky for us.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Eddie Schorr View Post
                For the women, I think 2500‐3000 hits the sweet spot.
                Minnesota's Ridder Arena is listed at 3400 capacity. Being THE Ohio State University we don't want to be outdone. I'd say 4000 to guarantee hosting tournaments. If our coach keeps doing what she does who knows how great our attendance can become? Learn from history, they said we'll never fill the Horseshoe when it was built. It's much easier to go big initially then realize too late down the road it's too small! I would rather have empty seats with a larger arena so no one is turned away at the door.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hockeybuckeye View Post

                  Minnesota's Ridder Arena is listed at 3400 capacity. Being THE Ohio State University we don't want to be outdone. I'd say 4000 to guarantee hosting tournaments.
                  Upfront, I could definitely be excited about a Women's Hockey rink with 4,000 seats. But Eddie Schorr's 2,500 to 3,000 range would be better in almost every respect. To me, those extra 1,000+ seats would ramp up construction costs, yet give us something that doesn't fit as well. Don't want to be outdone?? Let's say your T-Shirt size is large. Do you buy a 2XL because you don't want to be outdone? I say no; you buy the shirt that fits.

                  If our coach keeps doing what she does who knows how great our attendance can become? Learn from history, they said we'll never fill the Horseshoe when it was built.
                  I'm familiar with that history. And trust me, I tell anyone who will listen how proud I am of "The House That Harley Built." When I show out-of-town visitors around, my boast is that Ohio Stadium is "One of America's Great Sports Places." Trouble is, it's not the relevant history.

                  Football is absolutely enormous in the State of Ohio. The NFL was born here; the Football Hall of Fame is here. Buckeye Football wins at an astonishing rate. I'll grant you that many people back in the 1920's didn't grasp Football's upside potential.

                  I'm also very proud of the progress the Hockey community has made in the decades that I've lived in Columbus. And I do believe that hockey will continue to grow here. But growth at Football proportions? I simply don't buy it. That's a pipe dream, and it would be a mistake to determine hockey seating capacity based on a pipe dream.

                  Here's some history for you. Your position is hauntingly familiar to many comments made when the Schott was being planned with Men's Hockey in mind. "We're Ohio State. We'll fill it. The normal rules don't apply to us." Uh-huh. When the Schott was the shiny new toy, having the extra capacity was occasionally very helpful. After a few seasons, when we settled into a new normal pattern, it was helpful for one particular opponent. And sometimes not even that.

                  The most relevant history is what the other Women's D-1 Hockey schools have experienced.

                  It's much easier to go big initially then realize too late down the road it's too small!
                  Designing a new facility that could easily be expanded would be a good idea. Maybe start out with seating in a horseshoe design, then fill in the open end later if it proves to be necessary. That's essentially what Football did, if we must analogize to Football.

                  I would rather have empty seats with a larger arena so no one is turned away at the door.
                  I do feel bad that some people have been turned away. But the current situation is a perfect storm. Defending National Champs/Free Tickets/Rink Too Small. If we had seating capacity that was even in the middle of the D-1 pack, no one's being turned away. If we had even a nominal charge for tickets -- say $3 to $5 -- anyone who truly cared about a game could guarantee their spot by buying in advance.

                  For my part, I would rather turn a few people away during a perfect storm, than build a facility that doesn't fit the program.

                  Something to Consider: You really ought to check out a Wrestling Meet or a Volleyball Match @ Covelli. The athletes, coaches and fans all love it. And a big reason is the fact that the building is appropriately sized.


                  I appreciate this conversation. And if the disagreement boils down to 2,500 vs. 4,000 seats, we're not all that far apart.

                  Comment


                  • I respect your opinion Mr.PGB and we've had many similar discussions on the size of a future men's arena but I counter cost should not be a factor, Ohio State can easily come up with adequate funds for any project. I think we should anticipate our possible future needs and not just our current ones when you're going to allot many millions on a permanent structure that should stand for many decades. We all have our opinions and that's what's great about forum that we can share and discuss them.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hockeybuckeye View Post
                      I respect your opinion Mr.PGB and we've had many similar discussions on the size of a future men's arena but I counter cost should not be a factor, Ohio State can easily come up with adequate funds for any project. I think we should anticipate our possible future needs and not just our current ones when you're going to allot many millions on a permanent structure that should stand for many decades. We all have our opinions and that's what's great about forum that we can share and discuss them.
                      Being good stewards of financial resources is inherently positive, regardless of ability to pay. On the $$, I'll leave it at that.

                      I'll be a little more specific on the relevant history for seating capacity. We have over two decades of attendance history for both the Final Face-Off & The Women's Frozen Four. At some point, I'd like to assemble those numbers and take a serious look. I'd also like to see year-by-year attendance numbers for D-1 Women's Hockey @ Minnesota & Wisconsin. For a fuller picture, it would be great to add UMD & Clarkson to the mix. Guess what we have in common with those four programs! (winking emoticon here)

                      I believe that those numbers would yield a fairly clear picture of potential attendance for the foreseeable future. Now I was hoping this would be more of an off-season project. But if someone has easy access to some of those numbers, please post.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post
                        But if someone has easy access to some of those numbers, please post.
                        USCHO has this page with drop-down menus that let you pick a season of interest:
                        https://www.uscho.com/stats/attendan...ision-i-women/

                        "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
                        And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post

                          Being good stewards of financial resources is inherently positive, regardless of ability to pay. On the $$, I'll leave it at that.

                          I'll be a little more specific on the relevant history for seating capacity. We have over two decades of attendance history for both the Final Face-Off & The Women's Frozen Four. At some point, I'd like to assemble those numbers and take a serious look. I'd also like to see year-by-year attendance numbers for D-1 Women's Hockey @ Minnesota & Wisconsin. For a fuller picture, it would be great to add UMD & Clarkson to the mix. Guess what we have in common with those four programs! (winking emoticon here)

                          I believe that those numbers would yield a fairly clear picture of potential attendance for the foreseeable future. Now I was hoping this would be more of an off-season project. But if someone has easy access to some of those numbers, please post.
                          I happened to be looking at an article on Saturday regarding the attendance numbers for Wisconsin's 2020 "Fill The Bowl" that lists the 'tickets distributed' and 'tickets scanned' (that is, people actually in the building) for each home game that season. I know there are similar such articles for other seasons. Included is a chart for prior years, but not game-by-game. Note that some of the yearly numbers are 'skewed' by "Fill The Bowl" events.

                          (Interesting note that I had not known: because UW women's games are not assigned seats and there are always a significant number of 'no-shows', the UW athletic dept actually distributes more tickets than the arena actually holds! When they announce an attendance, they always announce 'only' the stated capacity. But they distribute a larger number - 'distribute' being the word used instead of sold because student tickets (and maybe others?) are free?).)

                          https://madison.com/wsj/sports/colle...ml?mode=nowapp

                          ------------------
                          The article for 2021-2022
                          https://journaltimes.com/sports/coll...1098dc9bd.html
                          Last edited by robertearle; 02-06-2023, 08:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • My sweet spot would be 3,000 - 4,000 seats, but I don't think we are going to get that. I am not going to be disappointed if it is not as big as Ridder. Regardless of how many seats there are, it will be state of the art, just as nice as Ridder, LaBahn, or the new arena St. Thomas is going to build. My lower-end number is based on the desire to host events like the Frozen Four, not to mention the IIHF Women's World Championships. Would love to see a gold medal game between USA and Canada in my backyard. The closest I have come to that was a few hours up the road in Plymouth, MI, in 2017.

                            I love scrolling through here, though, and reading all the takes on this. I understand the point of view of Pgb of not building too big. I actually had a convo with one of our assistant coaches. They obviously want a new facility, but, and this is key, they do not want to lose the home ice atmosphere that we have at the OSU Ice Rink with packed stands full of loud, energetic fans. Pgb, correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is what you are getting at when you say build the new rink accordingly.

                            I also understand Hockeybuckeye's point of view that we should have some foresight and build a rink with a larger capacity than what we have now, or at least something that will allow for expansion in the future. I agree with Pgb that Women's Hockey will not necessarily have the exact same upward trajectory as Football, but clearly, there is an upward trajectory there, and we have no idea where things will be in ten to twenty years. We may be selling out a 3,000 - 4,000 seat arena in twenty years. I was curious so I went back to the box scores for our games at Ridder this past weekend to check the attendance; 2,848 for Friday night's game and 2,865 for Saturday afternoon's game.

                            At this point, I will probably be fine with something that seats 1,500 - 2,000. I have already mentioned my magic number of 3,000 - 4,000 seats, but I do like the raucous atmosphere of the OSU Ice Rink and do not want to lose that in a new arena. I am to the point now where I am, like, "Just build it already." The time is now. This program has waited long enough. They are National Champions. A new arena for them is way overdue, IMHO. Great discussion and points of view from everyone.
                            Last edited by osualum86; 02-06-2023, 10:31 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Along the same lines, the attendance numbers at other arenas that sell season tickets may be inflated from the actual number of people there for any given game. The number that really jumps out to me is the one for UMD, where they list an average attendance of just over 1,100 about every single year. I’ve been to about 20 games at Amsoil over the last several years and I would estimate that the typical number of people in the seats for any given game has been more like half that.

                              From what I’ve seen, Wisconsin seems to be unique in terms of their sustained attendance by the general public. I think the situation was the same for the Gophers several years ago but more recently it seems the number of people in the building is down except for the marquee matchups (again, season ticket sales may inflate the reported numbers for the other games). One advantage that the Gophers have over most other teams is that there may be a half dozen or more girls youth teams and their parents attending any given game. With that in mind, I think the Buckeyes may want to target around 2,500 seats so they can exceed Labahn while not getting concerned about beating out “The State of Hockey” for a dedicated women’s arena. If I had a vote, I would suggest they look at the Duluth Heritage Center for inspiration. It’s a beautiful rink and adding a couple more row of seats would probably create the desired capacity.
                              Last edited by MinnOTB; 02-06-2023, 10:46 PM.

                              Comment


                              • For some context as to why the Yuckeye arena situation should not be looked at in supposed competition with what the Tunnelers have (or what the Tommy Bahama's will be getting) is highlighted by looking at the arena history from the below link (click on the arenas tab in the top menu to see the lengthy list). That history and community involvement is just something that almost all the other states will not be able to replicate.

                                https://history.vintagemnhockey.com/
                                At the outset, we could hang with the dude...

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