Ohio State Buckeyes 2022-2023 ... The Drive For Duluth

[pgb-ohio]

My sweet spot would be 3,000 - 4,000 seats, but I don't think we are going to get that. I am not going to be disappointed if it is not as big as Ridder. Regardless of how many seats there are, it will be state of the art, just as nice as Ridder, LaBahn, or the new arena St. Thomas is going to build. My lower-end number is based on the desire to host events like the Frozen Four, not to mention the IIHF Women's World Championships. Would love to see a gold medal game between USA and Canada in my backyard. The closest I have come to that was a few hours up the road in Plymouth, MI, in 2017.

Columbus has hosted a USA/Canada game. The venue was Nationwide Arena. (Downtown Home of the CBJ) I'm guessing that was about 15 years ago. Regardless of the exact year, it was part of an exhibition tour in the run-up to tournament competition.

I love scrolling through here, though, and reading all the takes on this. I understand the point of view of Pgb of not building too big. I actually had a convo with one of our assistant coaches. They obviously want a new facility, but, and this is key, they do not want to lose the home ice atmosphere that we have at the OSU Ice Rink with packed stands full of loud, energetic fans. Pgb, correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is what you are getting at when you say build the new rink accordingly.

I haven't discussed this subject with any of the coaches, but it's good to hear that I've wandered onto their wavelength. And yes, near sellouts with loud, energetic fans is exactly what I'm getting at. And the coaches are probably the ones best equipped to say what the magic number of seats is.

I also understand Hockeybuckeye's point of view that we should have some foresight and build a rink with a larger capacity than what we have now, or at least something that will allow for expansion in the future. I agree with Pgb that Women's Hockey will not necessarily have the exact same upward trajectory as Football, but clearly, there is an upward trajectory there, and we have no idea where things will be in ten to twenty years. We may be selling out a 3,000 - 4,000 seat arena in twenty years.

I'll post some numbers tonight. As a preview, I'll say that attendance numbers for the most relevant teams have been pretty stable over the last 10 years. As opposed to any across-the-board upward trend. Naturally OSU has an upward trend, because the fantastic on-ice success. But in the long term, peaks and valleys related to on-ice performance will tend to cancel out.

Routinely drawing 4,000 fans for regular season Women's Hockey is wonderfully appealing fantasy. Unfortunately for the foreseeable future, I believe it's just that -- a fantasy. But what if the fantasy comes true in 20 years? We can have our caregivers wheel us over to the Varsity Club and we'll lead the celebration!

By the way, thanks much to ARM, robertearle & MinnOTB for the links & info. Everything was spot-on relevant to the questions I'm trying to answer. Also enjoyed FHF's Arena List.

I was curious so I went back to the box scores for our games at Ridder this past weekend to check the attendance; 2,848 for Friday night's game and 2,865 for Saturday afternoon's game.

For the biggest series of the regular season. On prime dates, in a hockey hotbed, with no major conflicts to the best of my knowledge. OK, it's just two data points. But they are consistent with my position that anything over 3,000 seats is a mistake.

At this point, I will probably be fine with something that seats 1,500 - 2,000. I have already mentioned my magic number of 3,000 - 4,000 seats, but I do like the raucous atmosphere of the OSU Ice Rink and do not want to lose that in a new arena. I am to the point now where I am, like, "Just build it already." The time is now. This program has waited long enough. They are National Champions. A new arena for them is way overdue, IMHO. Great discussion and points of view from everyone.

Well put. Appreciate your flexibility, and your willingness to consider the advantages of a smaller building.

More tonight.

[ARM]

Unsolicited advise, but I'd recommend building a new arena right, and not being afraid to aim a bit higher. I think that concourse level seating at Ridder is listed at 3,100; the other 300 are supposedly upstairs at club level and the suites. For tournaments, much of that is used up by media, support staff, and league personnel.

I've never watched a game in Ridder and thought, "This place is too big." There were years where I doubted that there were more than 300 people there for a WCHA quarterfinal, especially when the weather was bad and the game wasn't included in the season-ticket package. Youth teams are a big part of the attendance at GWH games, and it is always more challenging to fill the place for something that isn't on the schedule, because the youth teams don't attend. The feeling wasn't that there were too many seats; there were too few people, and removing any number of seats wouldn't have changed that. In any case, you don't build your rink for those few dates that are near the bottom of your average.

Minnesota crowds in the range of 1,800 - 2,200 are fairly common. Would it improve the atmosphere to have a building with a capacity of 2,400 or fewer for such games? Maybe by a little, say five percent (if it is possible to quantify "atmosphere.") However, in order to achieve that theoretical gain, you have to sacrifice adding another 1,000 people for the games that matter most.

Learn from what others have done, what's worked and what hasn't. If you build it with a small capacity, don't compound the problem by assuming that the average fan weighs 100 pounds and expect that they can fit on 16" of bench.

Most of the faults of Ridder involve something being planned too low rather than too high. Not enough restroom capacity, especially for women. Inadequate concessions. The concourse is too narrow in places, mostly by the concession areas, although not as bad as somewhere like the old DECC. The sightlines aren't great, as there is often too much metal and glass in the way, but not as problematic as the infamous netting at another venue that you know. One thing Ridder does well in comparison to arenas where the stands have a more gradual slope, is that it gets those 3K fans close to the action, which can create energy.

What ever your "dream home," I hope it becomes a reality!

[pgb-ohio]

Here's a start:

Average Annual Attendance
10 Year Period
Women's Hockey NCAA Champion Schools + Penn State

Wisconsin 2,077*
Minnesota 1,936
Minnesota-Duluth 1,177
Penn State 550
Clarkson 442
Ohio State 439


Notes:

1. These numbers are based on the USCHO stats; link provided by ARM.

2. For a variety of reasons, all of these numbers are likely to be a bit high. At the most basic level, there's an obvious incentive to pad the numbers by counting people working the game, and so on. There's no corresponding incentive to under-report.

3. Another problem is paid no-shows. It's certainly legitimate for a school to report money in the till. Nevertheless, remember that MinnOTB believes that at some UMD games, paid no-shows could account for half of the reported attendance. But I'm interested in the number of fans actually in the building. In other words, "scanned tickets," or "drop count." So it's hard to know what to make of the UMD number.

4. Here at Ohio State, admission is free. So there's literally no scanned ticket number. Sometimes it looks like the "count" amounts to "the usual crowd is here, so use the usual number."

5. As per robertearle, Wisconsin numbers may be the most misleading of all. Fill the Bowl numbers just skew the results. Fill the Bowl might very well be an idea worth swiping. But for the current topic, I'm interested in the average number of people attending in LaBahn. Also, selling the same seat twice may put more $$ in the till, but it doesn't put more people in the building. For Wisconsin, I used either the reported attendance OR the building capacity -- whichever was lower in the given year.

*EDIT: robertearle provided an improved number for Wisconsin, that at least eliminated the Fill the Bowl issue. 2,077 is that improved number.

6. My numbers actually go back 11 years. The smattering of reports for 2020-21 -- the pandemic year -- are completely meaningless. So I went back to 2012-13 to get a tenth year.

7. I added Penn State to the mix. Partly because they're a Big Ten Sister School, and partly because they represent the state of the art option for having both teams share the same rink.


Discussion:

1. Wisconsin and Minnesota lead the way, drawing approximately 2,000 fans per game. Matching that number is a fine goal. Claiming that we at Ohio State will easily exceed 2,000 seems like a dubious claim.

2. UMD and Penn State play in state of the art arenas, with seating capacity designed for the Men's program. The Penn State number doesn't look all that different from the Ohio State number (humble building) or Clarkson. (nicer building with smaller overall capacity) UMD is higher, but as per Note #3 above, it could be that the in-house attendance actually fits in with the other schools in this second tier. Meaning attendance in the 400-600 range. Or, you can accept the UMD number as is, and consider the Bulldogs in a tier of their own.

3. I'm good with the goal of "not turning people away." To pursue that, you need to have number of seats above the average number, in order to account for the biggest games. For OSU, building a rink with 400-500 seats wouldn't accomplish that, and would be a serious mistake. We've recently been reporting attendance in the 700-800 range. Given that some people have indeed been turned away, I conclude that we need at least 1,000 seats right now. Perhaps putting OSU in a grouping with UMD.

4. With a neat new building, you'd certainly expect attendance to increase. But the Penn State experience with a neat new building suggests that for Women's D-1 Hockey, that increase is likely to be in the hundreds, not the thousands. If you build it, they will come. But necessarily in huge numbers. What does that mean for OSU? This is just a guess. But maybe after the shiny new toy phase wears off, perhaps an extra 400-500 fans per game?

5. So far, I'm at 1,500 seats, with a need to consider future growth.


Up Next: Attendance Trends Over Time.

[robertearle]

"... selling the same seat twice..."?

[ARM]

Wisconsin 2,164
Minnesota 1,936
Minnesota-Duluth 1,177
Penn State 550
Clarkson 442
Ohio State 439
...
5. As per robertearle, Wisconsin numbers may be the most misleading of all.

At the same time, Wisconsin may have had as many sellouts during the LaBahn era as the rest of the country combined. If you see that market as being the closest fit to Columbus, and in some ways, it likely is, it's hard to conclude that LaBahn was built any too large. More than the average for a season, a better measure might be what was something like the 3rd-largest crowd in a season, to get away from the one big rival or a special promotion.

6. My numbers actually go back 11 years. The smattering of reports for 2020-21 -- the pandemic year -- are completely meaningless. So I went back to 2012-13 to get a tenth year.

Last year was also a non-typical season, so I wouldn't put much stock in 2021-22 numbers. There weren't many sports where attendance was anywhere near the average, so it is a credit to Madison that the Badgers did as well attendance wise as they did.

[osualum86]

Unsolicited advise, but I'd recommend building a new arena right, and not being afraid to aim a bit higher. I think that concourse level seating at Ridder is listed at 3,100; the other 300 are supposedly upstairs at club level and the suites. For tournaments, much of that is used up by media, support staff, and league personnel.

I've never watched a game in Ridder and thought, "This place is too big." There were years where I doubted that there were more than 300 people there for a WCHA quarterfinal, especially when the weather was bad and the game wasn't included in the season-ticket package. Youth teams are a big part of the attendance at GWH games, and it is always more challenging to fill the place for something that isn't on the schedule, because the youth teams don't attend. The feeling wasn't that there were too many seats; there were too few people, and removing any number of seats wouldn't have changed that. In any case, you don't build your rink for those few dates that are near the bottom of your average.

Minnesota crowds in the range of 1,800 - 2,200 are fairly common. Would it improve the atmosphere to have a building with a capacity of 2,400 or fewer for such games? Maybe by a little, say five percent (if it is possible to quantify "atmosphere.") However, in order to achieve that theoretical gain, you have to sacrifice adding another 1,000 people for the games that matter most.

Learn from what others have done, what's worked and what hasn't. If you build it with a small capacity, don't compound the problem by assuming that the average fan weighs 100 pounds and expect that they can fit on 16" of bench.

Most of the faults of Ridder involve something being planned too low rather than too high. Not enough restroom capacity, especially for women. Inadequate concessions. The concourse is too narrow in places, mostly by the concession areas, although not as bad as somewhere like the old DECC. The sightlines aren't great, as there is often too much metal and glass in the way, but not as problematic as the infamous netting at another venue that you know. One thing Ridder does well in comparison to arenas where the stands have a more gradual slope, is that it gets those 3K fans close to the action, which can create energy.

What ever your "dream home," I hope it becomes a reality!

Thank you for the perspective from a Ridder point of view ... more great points for us here in Buckeye Nation to consider. I especially like the statement regarding you never watching a game in Ridder and thinking "This place is too big." I also liked your thought that the feeling wasn't that there were too many seats, it was that there were too few people. Regarding your point about 16" of bench, any of us who have been to an Ohio State Football game, and I think most of us have, we can totally relate to that!

[robertearle]

"Wisconsin 2,164"
"As per robertearle, Wisconsin numbers may be the most misleading of all. Fill the Bowl numbers just skew the results."

(If I did the job right...)

Games at LaBahn from 2012-13 through 2021-22, with COVID 2020-21 excluded and "Fill The Bowl" games taken out:

Average announced attendance - 2077
Tickets scanned in - 1439

---------

(As for no reliable numbers for Ohio State games: I expect that somebody is counting heads, because there are fire limits, etc. So I would think the announced numbers are fairly accurate.)

[osualum86]

Here's a start:

Average Annual Attendance
10 Year Period
Women's Hockey NCAA Champion Schools + Penn State

Wisconsin 2,164
Minnesota 1,936
Minnesota-Duluth 1,177
Penn State 550
Clarkson 442
Ohio State 439


Notes:

1. These numbers are based on the USCHO stats; link provided by ARM.

2. For a variety of reasons, all of these numbers are likely to be a bit high. At the most basic level, there's an obvious incentive to pad the numbers by counting people working the game, and so on. There's no corresponding incentive to under-report.

3. Another problem is paid no-shows. It's certainly legitimate for a school to report money in the till. Nevertheless, remember that MinnOTB believes that at some UMD games, paid no-shows could account for half of the reported attendance. But I'm interested in the number of fans actually in the building. In other words, "scanned tickets," or "drop count." So it's hard to know what to make of the UMD number.

4. Here at Ohio State, admission is free. So there's literally no scanned ticket number. Sometimes it looks like the "count" amounts to "the usual crowd is here, so use the usual number."

5. As per robertearle, Wisconsin numbers may be the most misleading of all. Fill the Bowl numbers just skew the results. Fill the Bowl might very well be an idea worth swiping. But for the current topic, I'm interested in the average number of people attending in LaBahn. Also, selling the same seat twice may put more $$ in the till, but it doesn't put more people in the building. For Wisconsin, I used either the reported attendance OR the building capacity -- whichever was lower in the given year.

6. My numbers actually go back 11 years. The smattering of reports for 2020-21 -- the pandemic year -- are completely meaningless. So I went back to 2012-13 to get a tenth year.

7. I added Penn State to the mix. Partly because they're a Big Ten Sister School, and partly because they represent the state of the art option for having both teams share the same rink.


Discussion:

1. Wisconsin and Minnesota lead the way, drawing approximately 2,000 fans per game. Matching that number is a fine goal. Claiming that we at Ohio State will easily exceed 2,000 seems like a dubious claim.

2. UMD and Penn State play in state of the art arenas, with seating capacity designed for the Men's program. The Penn State number doesn't look all that different from the Ohio State number (humble building) or Clarkson. (nicer building with smaller overall capacity) UMD is higher, but as per Note #3 above, it could be that the in-house attendance actually fits in with the other schools in this second tier. Meaning attendance in the 400-600 range. Or, you can accept the UMD number as is, and consider the Bulldogs in a tier of their own.

3. I'm good with the goal of "not turning people away." To pursue that, you need to have number of seats above the average number, in order to account for the biggest games. For OSU, building a rink with 400-500 seats wouldn't accomplish that, and would be a serious mistake. We've recently been reporting attendance in the 700-800 range. Given that some people have indeed been turned away, I conclude that we need at least 1,000 seats right now. Perhaps putting OSU in a grouping with UMD.

4. With a neat new building, you'd certainly expect attendance to increase. But the Penn State experience with a neat new building suggests that for Women's D-1 Hockey, that increase is likely to be in the hundreds, not the thousands. If you build it, they will come. But necessarily in huge numbers. What does that mean for OSU? This is just a guess. But maybe after the shiny new toy phase wears off, perhaps an extra 400-500 fans per game?

5. So far, I'm at 1,500 seats, with a need to consider future growth.


Up Next: Attendance Trends Over Time.

I am a numbers guy, so I thoroughly appreciate you crunching the numbers. Based on those numbers, I think something in the low 2,000 range would be sufficient for OSU. It would ensure that no one would be turned away, while also allowing for bigger crowds for those games against Minnesota, Minnesota-Duluth, and Wisconsin. I am thinking something like LaBahn Arena (2,273) or Colgate's Class of 1965 Arena (opened in 2016, seats 2,222) would be the right size.

[Hockeybuckeye]

I think something in the low 2,000 range would be sufficient for OSU.

We can chat about it at next weekends game but wouldn't the number you mentioned most likely keep us out of contention for hosting the WCHA championship or a second round NCAA playoff? I think hosting those should be a consideration for a new building. As a fan I certainly want the possibility of more post season games in our house. And wouldn't home ice be a benefit for our team to help advance in the tournaments?

[whoop87]

Just throwing this out there for comparison. UConn started playing in their brand spanking new on-campus rink a month ago. The Toscano Family Ice Forum seats 2600 and has steep seating with great sightlines. It does have a small balcony/club level that was closed at the women's game that I attended there 10 days ago. The UConn women were averaging 380 in the first 10 home games in their old rink right next door. So far they've had crowds of 1829, 1494, and 1579 in their first 3 games in the nicely appointed new rink. Kudos to UConn for doing the rink right. It's a great fit for the women's program. I'm guessing many fans wanted it larger since their men's team plays there too - but I know going forward the men will still be playing a good chunk of games in Hartford at the XL Center (formerly called the Hartford Civic Center where the NHL Whalers played) which is about 40 minutes away from campus. Also similar to OSU, the women's games are currently free. But I think that might change next year.

Here's a link with a few pics: https://uconnhuskies.com/facilities/...y-ice-forum/90

PGB - if you guys install a drawbridge for the visiting team, I'll make a road trip to Columbus this year. Otherwise, I'm holding out for your future digs.

[robertearle]

We can chat about it at next weekends game but wouldn't the number you mentioned most likely keep us out of contention for hosting the WCHA championship or a second round NCAA playoff? I think hosting those should be a consideration for a new building. As a fan I certainly want the possibility of more post season games in our house. And wouldn't home ice be a benefit for our team to help advance in the tournaments?

Hosting NCAAs prior to the final four is earned by the team's Pairwise and RPI/NPI ranking; It doesn't depend on the quality or size of the home rink. Ohio State hosted Quinnipiac just last year. Undoubtedly, you'll be doing so again this year.

[Hockeybuckeye]

Hosting NCAAs prior to the final four is earned by the team's Pairwise and RPI/NPI ranking; It doesn't depend on the quality or size of the home rink. Ohio State hosted Quinnipiac just last year. Undoubtedly, you'll be doing so again this year.

My memory is foggy but has a women's only arena ever hosted a women's Frozen Four? But what about my other point? How big must an arena be to be awarded a WCHA final? That cherry isn't determined by rankings.

[robertearle]

My memory is foggy but has a women's only arena ever hosted a women's Frozen Four? But what about my other point? How big must an arena be to be awarded a WCHA final? That cherry isn't determined by rankings.

Without double-checking, I'm fairly sure that the 2019 NCAA finals were at Ridder And I know for certain that 2018 (?, the year Ohio State lost to Clarkson in the semis, and UW lost to Colgate) were also at Ridder; I was there.

As for WCHAs, the issue "they" always bring up with regard to LaBahn hosting is space for press/media, not seating capacity. We hope, I guess, that having pulled off the U19 world championships might convince them otherwise. But recently, it has been limited to Ridder, Bemidji, North Dakota and Duluth; all good sized, etc.

[Hockeybuckeye]

As for WCHAs, the issue "they" always bring up with regard to LaBahn hosting is space for press/media, not seating capacity.

I would hope that press & media accomodations would be properly considered in the design of any new arena.
Pegula Arena where last years FF was played has an official seating capacity of 6014. I was hospitalized during the FF and can't recall, was it a sellout?

[pgb-ohio]

"... selling the same seat twice..."?

Unlike with other sports, UW distributes more tickets for women's hockey games than it has seats in LaBahn Arena — listed capacity 2,273 — by 300 or 400. That's done because of a lower usage rate among season ticket holders, a UW spokesman said.

If seating is General Admission, then my phrasing was awkward. My original thought was that, based on the above quote, UW is willing to sell 300-400 seats twice. But it's never a problem because no-shows are always > 400.

Now I'm guessing that we're talking about the distribution of free tickets. Meaning the tickets are more like "invitations," and not really sales?