Coronavirus

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

I have disagreed with Robert over the years. I have learned that he tries to be accurate, he tries to be truthful, and if he learns that he was wrong about something, he will admit to it. He has earned my respect as a contrarian (which isn't the right word, but neither is debater nor opponent).

These are things that I think to be true about the current situation:

1) Nobody on this forum wants people to die from Covid-19, or any other cause.
2) Everyone on this forum would like hockey to be played safely, at both the youth and collegiate level.
3) Covid-19 is something that nobody had heard of a year ago, and part of the reason that we disagree about how to deal with it is that the facts of the disease are still more like theories.

So why is it political? Partly because due to 3), we disagree about how to best achieve 1) and 2) simultaneously, or if both can be achieved. Also, love him or hate him, I think that most would agree that our President likes to be the focus of attention, and when he is involved, everything gets political.

Given all of that, can we give each other the benefit of the doubt? Assume that another poster has good intentions, even when posting different opinions. Our looonnnggg offseason is going to get even longer, and most of us value reasonable discourse.

About as well thought out a post as I have read in a long time. Gives a good reference point. Thank you.

[Timothy A]

Deep thoughts, not by Jack Handy....

168000 deaths is a lot, but the US is a HUGE country. The percent of the US population that has passed away to this point is .05%. The numbers are all relative. In 2018, 2.8 million people died in the US for reference. And interestingly enough, of the deaths, 80% are from 65 and over. We all should be wearing masks, and if you are in a high risk category, you need to make smart decisions. If you have close friends and family members you need to make smart decisions. Should the rest of the general population be deprived of living normal lives other than wearing masks? I don't know, but I'm leaning in the no direction.

At what point do we say, "if you get covid, it's your own fault"?

With this is mind, in relativity, all sports should go ahead and play without fans at a minimum, or allow fans in if the fans themselves want to make the decision to do so, based on their comfort level.

Right now there are no restrictions on Church attendance numbers. Our church has about 25% of the members who feel comfortable enough to come. Most wear masks, social distancing is required in the worship area, every other pew is blocked for use and people are encouraged to chit chat outside. This is over 4 service times. I wonder if this slice of life is at all an accurate telltale about how a sporting event would be attended. Church and sports teams have passionate people involved. Some are hard core, some are casual. Would I attend a UW women's hockey game tomorrow? I would, but if there were too many people there (like more than would allow for proper social distancing) I would leave.

[ARM]

I have disagreed with Robert over the years. I have learned that he tries to be accurate, he tries to be truthful, and if he learns that he was wrong about something, he will admit to it. He has earned my respect as a contrarian (which isn't the right word, but neither is debater nor opponent).

These are things that I think to be true about the current situation:

1) Nobody on this forum wants people to die from Covid-19, or any other cause.
2) Everyone on this forum would like hockey to be played safely, at both the youth and collegiate level.
3) Covid-19 is something that nobody had heard of a year ago, and part of the reason that we disagree about how to deal with it is that the facts of the disease are still more like theories.

So why is it political? Partly because due to 3), we disagree about how to best achieve 1) and 2) simultaneously, or if both can be achieved. Also, love him or hate him, I think that most would agree that our President likes to be the focus of attention, and when he is involved, everything gets political.

Given all of that, can we give each other the benefit of the doubt? Assume that another poster has good intentions, even when posting different opinions. Our looonnnggg offseason is going to get even longer, and most of us value reasonable discourse.

[robertearle]

The Press continues to ignore Turkey who was inundated with Syrian refugees and only has Less Than 6,000 deaths with a population of 81,000,000 which is about 1/5 the size of USA. Turkey did not lockdown and followed a slightly stricter Sweden model and uses Hydroxy. Hmmmm. 5 x 6,000 equals 30,000 deaths of USA used Hydroxy. Here is the kicker Erdogan says he followed Trump's rec and the French Dr Didier. Turkey is not in the USA's back pocket either.The politics in this country are killing amateur sports. The harm to colleges and dreams of youths are going to be substantial.

Turkey had a national mandatory mask order as early as April 7, along with a fairly strict lockdown on shopping, mosques, restaurants, etc., with a 'complete' lockdown on those under 20 and over 65; curfews, complete isolation of some cities etc.

(and saw some increases in new cases when as those measures were incrementally lifted.)

[robertearle]

Why the sudden shift to cancel football? Easy - liability reasons, in the B1G especially. There is a very public case of an IU player who had covid who now apparently has heart problems. While the NCAA model works very well for the vast majority of student-athletes (and all women players), it apparently is 'unfair' to a handful of football players in P5 programs and if the season continued and more start to have long term health issues after contracting covid, it would be easy pick'ins for any decent lawyer to say the schools put profits over the health of the players. Ripple effect of this will be severe I am afraid for the non-revenue sports and I am hoping there will be a women's hockey season next winter (this year is lost).

I listened to a podcast with the Wisconsin Volleyball coach just now, and while he wasn't asked the "why the sudden shift?" specifically, it was a point that was brought up and discussed. And he mentioned specifically the heart problems, myocarditis, that have been seen in football players, as well as the death of a former Florida State basketball player (Michael Ojo) and a high school cross county runner (in Pennsylvania?), both of whom he said had been COVID cases. He said that those had 'spooked" the Big Ten medical advisors and clearly implied that it was a big part of the "sudden shift".

The issue of 'liability' did not come up.

He also talked about the possibility of a couple of his seniors taking a red-shirt in 2020 if there is no spring season, or if the spring season ends up looking like it won't be 'worth' burning their final year of eligibility. While there was no mention of scholarships, he did not at all say or even imply that someone like that would not be 'welcome' to come back in 2021, as AD Barry Alvarez said would be the case back in the spring. So 'stay tuned' on that question.

you can find it here, if you are so inclined:
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/427-p...e-65-70184939/

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

First you insult me

I shouldn't have insulted you...That much is true.

[Reddington]

The Press continues to ignore Turkey who was inundated with Syrian refugees and only has Less Than 6,000 deaths with a population of 81,000,000 which is about 1/5 the size of USA. Turkey did not lockdown and followed a slightly stricter Sweden model and uses Hydroxy. Hmmmm. 5 x 6,000 equals 30,000 deaths of USA used Hydroxy. Here is the kicker Erdogan says he followed Trump's rec and the French Dr Didier. Turkey is not in the USA's back pocket either.The politics in this country are killing amateur sports. The harm to colleges and dreams of youths are going to be substantial.

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

FiveHole....why am I obligated to "make a deal"? This isn't about deals. I

You're not. But on the other hand didn't you post that you would make me a deal?

Interesting you bringing up the analogy of a gunfight. You're not another one of these folks that would like to meet me at the rink are you?

Oh and thanks for the MSM link. Your trust in them is admirable.

[robertearle]

...about the accuracy of death certificates and what the cause of death was. I'll see if I can find that. The basic gist of the article was that some, not all doctors, hate filling out paperwork and really put next to no effort into accurately filling out death certificates....but whether the number of deaths is 140,000 or 180,000, it's still a lot of people dying.

One more time: since March, the US has been seeing a large number of 'excess deaths' IRRESPECTIVE OF CAUSE OF DEATH. The obvious likely explanation is COVID. But if somebody wants to suggest another cause, another explanation, I'm all ears.

"....but whether the number of deaths is 140,000 or 180,000, it's still a lot of people dying."

Indeed it is. And the number grows, rapidly, every day.

[net presence]

You, as well, are not interested in a deal.

Hey nice job though, on going "really" hard sell on the bit with stuff like extremely respected, extremely valid, and truly respected.

FiveHole....why am I obligated to "make a deal"? This isn't about deals. It's about the fact that people like you refuse to acknowledge actual science and research and facts in regards to a topic about a VIRUS. As to your question regarding hospitals and whether or not the fact they get more money from a Covid death is motivating them to count non-Covid deaths as Covid deaths... here's an actual link to an article that investigates that little conspiracy theory:

https://www.statesman.com/news/20200...ng-coronavirus

Here's a paragraph from the article:

"The federal government has decided to pay hospitals more for treating COVID-19 patients. But it isn’t a windfall in the way the headline suggests. And there is no indication that hospitals are over-identifying patients as having COVID-19. If anything, evidence suggests the illness is being underdiagnosed"

Huh...interesting eh? FiveHole, I recommend you quit bringing a knife to a gun fight. As Captain America says, "I can do this all day"...

[Timothy A]

A person dies. A death certificate gets filed. They count how many certificates have been filed. They know how many deaths they expected, based on numbers from previous years. When they get more certificates than that, there are 'excess deaths'. Like there have been since March.

Do you have an explanation, other than COVID, for that phenomenon?

How does a hospital benefit financially by attributing the death to COVID, as opposed to, say, COPD or the flu?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...xeXqu6M2_4OOmI

Is isn't related to deaths, but there are financial reasons for Hospitals to list someone who has covid. I also read articles in March about the accuracy of death certificates and what the cause of death was. I'll see if I can find that. The basic gist of the article was that some, not all doctors, hate filling out paperwork and really put next to no effort into accurately filling out death certificates, which under normal circumstances isn't a big deal, right? Right now I guess it is, but whether the number of deaths is 140,000 or 180,000, it's still a lot of people dying.

On the other hand....the recovery rates is between 97 and 99.5%.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...Dtvvwjq8h_PzZY

[robertearle]

Sigh...I blame myself for getting into this mess. Lets just go with Peace, Love, and Bobby Sherman on WCH and on the rest agree to disagree.

That, and "Dig into researching that for yourself" are the kind of things people say when they try to blow smoke, and somebody challenges them to back up their BS.

First you insult me, and imply that I won't engage in discussion. Then when I do so, you walk away.

Whatever, dude. Agree to disagree with facts all you want. They're still there, and they're still facts.

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

What the hell is "reshuffled numbers" supposed to mean? A person dies. A death certificate gets filed. They count how many certificates have been filed. They know how many deaths they expected, based on numbers from previous years. When they get more certificates than that, there are 'excess deaths'. Like there have been since March.

Do you have an explanation, other than COVID, for that phenomenon?

How does a hospital benefit financially by attributing the death to COVID, as opposed to, say, COPD or the flu?

Sigh...I blame myself for getting into this mess. Lets just go with Peace, Love, and Bobby Sherman on WCH and on the rest agree to disagree.

[robertearle]

OMG, you answered honestly. I am surprised.

The answer is yes there is, but please don't take my word for it. Dig into researching that for yourself.

Are there really excess deaths or could those be reshuffled numbers? Interesting to consider when the money becomes a factor. Clear and critical thinking.

What the hell is "reshuffled numbers" supposed to mean? A person dies. A death certificate gets filed. They count how many certificates have been filed. They know how many deaths they expected, based on numbers from previous years. When they get more certificates than that, there are 'excess deaths'. Like there have been since March.

Do you have an explanation, other than COVID, for that phenomenon?

How does a hospital benefit financially by attributing the death to COVID, as opposed to, say, COPD or the flu?

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

No idea

OMG, you answered honestly. I am surprised.

The answer is yes there is, but please don't take my word for it. Dig into researching that for yourself.

Are there really excess deaths or could those be reshuffled numbers? Interesting to consider when the money becomes a factor. Clear and critical thinking.