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  • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Originally posted by GTOWN View Post
    I can only speak for myself, but I welcome ideas and new posters (I've only been on here for a year myself!). I would imagine tempers run a little hot in any forum when you talk about cutting programs.....
    I think that's fair, and candidly after I posted my remarks I regretted them slightly. But there were a couple of posters in this thread who basically took the position that since I did not post here regularly, my opinions were both unwelcome and without merit. That argument, I find, is typically made by posters who feel like they are losing the argument.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

      Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
      I think that's fair, and candidly after I posted my remarks I regretted them slightly. But there were a couple of posters in this thread who basically took the position that since I did not post here regularly, my opinions were both unwelcome and without merit. That argument, I find, is typically made by posters who feel like they are losing the argument.
      I think it's less about it being reserved and more about being annoyed that people who have never expressed much interest in women's hockey on this forum before the UND Women's team got cut are coming on to the forum and demand people lamenting the loss of a program justify its past existence based on finances alone. It comes across as gloating about this loss of a program, and now those gloating are complaining people don't like them...

      Comment


      • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

        Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
        I think that's fair, and candidly after I posted my remarks I regretted them slightly. But there were a couple of posters in this thread who basically took the position that since I did not post here regularly, my opinions were both unwelcome and without merit. That argument, I find, is typically made by posters who feel like they are losing the argument.
        And as I understand it when the women's program being cut was brought up on the UND men's thread the poster(s) were told to go here. If that is correct than it seems to go both ways.

        Sean
        Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
        Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

        BU Hockey Games
        BU Hockey highlights and extras
        NCAA Hockey Financials
        Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
        I need a kidney; looking for a donor

        Comment


        • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

          Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
          **Summit is all bus travel; Big Sky is all air travel;
          I did straight line distances between UND and all the Summit and Big Sky full members and well the Summit is indeed more compact it seems unlikely it is all bus travel. In fact 4 of the 9 Summit schools are further away from UND than the current closest Big Sky school. So, at least 4 of the Summit schools should be air travel.

          Summit
          Denver 692
          Fort Wayne 753
          IUPUI 781
          North Dakota State 72
          Nebraska Omaha 465
          Oral Roberts 823
          South Dakota 355
          South Dakota State 250
          Western Illinois 604

          Big Sky
          Idaho 821
          Idaho State 935
          Eastern Washington 763
          Montana State 678
          Northern Arizona 1,155
          Northern Colorado 642
          Portland State 1,219
          Southern Utah 1,073
          Weber State 866

          Sean
          Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
          Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

          BU Hockey Games
          BU Hockey highlights and extras
          NCAA Hockey Financials
          Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
          I need a kidney; looking for a donor

          Comment


          • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

            Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
            If someone can show me a fiscally responsible balanced budget for the 2017-2019 state legislative biennium for UND to:

            - add 13 scholarships to women's sports to meet the demands of the Summit League (UND leaving Big Sky in 2018 to save on travel costs* **)
            - balance the M/W opportunities, be Title IX compliant, after cutting baseball* in spring 2016 (when that team was on the field playing a home game)
            - balance M/W grants in aid, be Title IX complaint, while doing the above (adding 13 women's, dropping 5 men's)
            - cut an additional $1.3 million out of the FY18 annual Athletics baseline budget (after chopping baseball and reallocating grants) and beyond per the funding cuts from the ND Legislature
            - maintain the required sport sponsorship for Summit membership
            - maintain 16 NCAA sports to remain NCAA DI qualified
            - be balanced (no deficit spending, no pushing debt to future budgets)

            I'd be happy to see it. (Notice all I put on the table is baseball is gone. Please start at the NCAA FY16 report from UND and reallocate from there.)

            Please send copies to Mark Kennedy and Brian Faison at UND as well.


            *per 2015-2017 state biennium budget cuts
            **Summit is all bus travel; Big Sky is all air travel;
            I think having a different perspective from someone like Sicatoka can add some value. He/she has obviously spent a lot of time researching this information and brings some numbers to light that are hard to ignore. It is inevitable that the discussion will go vitriolic when you go from stats & facts to observations of all things hockey.

            As UND insider that has shared time with every athletic director and retained law firm for the past twenty years. I would like to get your thoughts on some of the pressures that might have led to this monumental decision to cut a hockey program at UND. You mention the champion club fee's generated $million's to unallocated revenues. As a result the MIH team accounting shows a $200,000+ loss. A conservative estimate of 4000 season ticket holders puts their unallocated revenue at $5m. That's in addition to the $3.7m in ticket sales. It obvious that MIH is the funding all the teams on campus.

            Do you think that Faison & Kennedy would even think about cutting a sport that represents the identity of UND if they didn't first have the blessing or at least no objections from the Men's program? I've always liked Brad Berry as coach and a teammate but it sure seems like he threw the women's program under the bus without a fight or so much as professional tweet of sympathy to the women's staff and players. Even the MIH players that did come to the defense of their women counterparts were told to quickly remove their social media comments. Any thoughts?

            Comment


            • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

              Originally posted by Sean Pickett View Post
              And as I understand it when the women's program being cut was brought up on the UND men's thread the poster(s) were told to go here. If that is correct than it seems to go both ways.

              Sean
              I'd forgotten about that, but I think you are right. But I generally agreed with that. There was a specific topic on UND cutting women's hockey, here in the women's threads, and I had no problem with requests that our posts be put here, rather than in the men's thread. That made sense to me.
              That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

              Comment


              • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                Originally posted by Pens4 View Post
                I think having a different perspective from someone like Sicatoka can add some value. He/she has obviously spent a lot of time researching this information and brings some numbers to light that are hard to ignore. It is inevitable that the discussion will go vitriolic when you go from stats & facts to observations of all things hockey.

                As UND insider that has shared time with every athletic director and retained law firm for the past twenty years. I would like to get your thoughts on some of the pressures that might have led to this monumental decision to cut a hockey program at UND. You mention the champion club fee's generated $million's to unallocated revenues. As a result the MIH team accounting shows a $200,000+ loss. A conservative estimate of 4000 season ticket holders puts their unallocated revenue at $5m. That's in addition to the $3.7m in ticket sales. It obvious that MIH is the funding all the teams on campus.

                Do you think that Faison & Kennedy would even think about cutting a sport that represents the identity of UND if they didn't first have the blessing or at least no objections from the Men's program? I've always liked Brad Berry as coach and a teammate but it sure seems like he threw the women's program under the bus without a fight or so much as professional tweet of sympathy to the women's staff and players. Even the MIH players that did come to the defense of their women counterparts were told to quickly remove their social media comments. Any thoughts?
                I would be shocked if Berry was consulted on the fate of the women's program, but I have no inside information. The fact that there have not been any tweets or public comments from the men's side, other than a couple of player's tweets which were quickly silenced, doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm not sure we've heard any public statements from the men's program supporting the discontinuance of the women's program either. Regardless of the success of the men's program, Berry and his staff are employed by the University at the pleasure of the AD. I'm not sure many people would come out taking public shots at their bosses in a situation like this.
                That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                Comment


                • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                  Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                  I'd let it go, Sic. You made the same mistake I did a few weeks ago. I wandered into this curious little area on USCHO apparently reserved for the seventeen posters interested in only posting in women's hockey forums. Candidly, I had no idea it was so provincial, but discovered as much when I was told in no uncertain terms I was not welcome here.

                  it's not, I prefer to think of it as boutique
                  the two that told you to leave don't represent everyone here, just 2/17ths of it, just like the protestors you see on TV, they make their demands, but who really cares what they think?
                  perhaps they should read Robert Pirsig's (who died yesterday) "Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance"
                  maybe they can add some Apollo to their Dionysus
                  I was hoping I'd get an answer to why you don't like women's hockey
                  maybe this athlete is more to your liking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XGI...XGIRLwcw4o#t=2
                  I suggest full screen and good audio
                  Last edited by pokechecker; 04-25-2017, 06:21 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                    I'd let it go, Sic. You made the same mistake I did a few weeks ago. I wandered into this curious little area on USCHO apparently reserved for the seventeen posters interested in only posting in women's hockey forums. Candidly, I had no idea it was so provincial, but discovered as much when I was told in no uncertain terms I was not welcome here.
                    I'll give you an explanation. I don't remember your posts specifically, but Sicatoka did everything possible to antagonize people. He wandered in here to tell that we are wrong and here's how things really are. Those of us who only read the women's boards had no idea who he is, and he had no established credibility. This did not stop him from expecting that we would take everything he said as gospel.

                    In short, it was a textbook case of mansplainin', albeit directed at women's hockey fans rather than necessarily at women themselves. There was no attempt at dialogue, just an assumption that he was an Authority and we all needed to listen.

                    He compounded that by making two fundamental errors, both classics of the mansplainin' genre. The first is that a significant chunk of what he posted, claiming that it was the real story that we had all been ignoring, in fact just repeated things that Sean Pickett had already laid out in detail. He either didn't bother to read the thread in which he thought we all had it wrong, or his attitude is that it hasn't really been said until the Big Bad Men's Hockey Poster has said it.

                    The second is that he also has claimed to understand things that he clearly doesn't. He makes statements that UND is out of title IX compliance, to the disadvantage of men, relying upon a single stat. He doesn't seem understand that there are many more things that are involved in Title IX compliance, or even that the disparity he cites in scholarship rates is well within the bounds of what the Department of Education considers to be "substantially equal". When this is pointed out, by someone who may not be a lawyer but has actually gone to the Code of Federal Regulations and read the rules regarding Title IX and athletics, he just continues to make the same point over and over without addressing any of the fallacies pointed out.

                    In short, if Sicatoka doesn't want to be treated like a complete *******, he'd be well served to stop behaving like a complete *******.

                    Comment


                    • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                      ^ classic ladysplainin'

                      Comment


                      • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                        Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                        I was hoping I'd get an answer to why you don't like women's hockey
                        I guess I'm not sure where this was drawn from. I've certainly never said I dislike women's hockey. In fact, I recently posted over at siouxsports.com an opinion that notwithstanding the financial drain on the University that many sports, not just women's hockey, cause, it would be better for the University as a whole if they could find a way to keep all of them. That drawing in students with diverse interests was part of the University experience.

                        But there was a lot of misinformation about UND, the numbers, etc..., floating about in this thread immediately after the announcement, and whether I am an avid follower of a particular sport at UND or not, I'm certainly going to come to the defense of the school when I see that occur.
                        That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                        Comment


                        • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                          Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                          But there was a lot of misinformation about UND, the numbers, etc..., floating about in this thread immediately after the announcement, and whether I am an avid follower of a particular sport at UND or not, I'm certainly going to come to the defense of the school when I see that occur.
                          May I ask what misinformation? and what numbers? I know I questioned some of the numbers from the UND NCAA reports. Some of them were answered, but I am interested in knowing if all of them were addressed or not.

                          Sean
                          Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
                          Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

                          BU Hockey Games
                          BU Hockey highlights and extras
                          NCAA Hockey Financials
                          Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
                          I need a kidney; looking for a donor

                          Comment


                          • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                            Originally posted by Eeyore View Post
                            I'll give you an explanation. I don't remember your posts specifically, but Sicatoka did everything possible to antagonize people. ... Those of us who only read the women's boards had no idea who he is, and he had no established credibility.
                            Antagonize?
                            I put out factual information that can checked, and with no ad hominem attacks.

                            My claims on Title IX come from people involved in the matter, people involved in the decisions leading to this one. This didn't happen overnight. But, here's another little insight from someone who "knows nothing" about Title IX: UND has some work to do as far as "facilities" for women's athletes now that WIH no longer uses REA. That's a detail to be worked out at this point. That said, the US OCR will come in and look at the gross statistics (participants and dollars) in first review, then opportunities and interests, and then get to those matters.

                            As for credibility, I believe one of the ad hominem's included a remark about my total posts on USCHO count and where they are mainly located. So, 11000 posts centered on UND MIH and I have no insights to UND Athletics. Surely you jest.
                            The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

                            North Dakota Hockey:

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                            • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                              Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
                              Antagonize?
                              I put out factual information that can checked, and with no ad hominem attacks.

                              My claims on Title IX come from people involved in the matter, people involved in the decisions leading to this one. This didn't happen overnight. But, here's another little insight from someone who "knows nothing" about Title IX: UND has some work to do as far as "facilities" for women's athletes now that WIH no longer uses REA. That's a detail to be worked out at this point. That said, the US OCR will come in and look at the gross statistics (participants and dollars) in first review, then opportunities and interests, and then get to those matters.

                              As for credibility, I believe one of the ad hominem's included a remark about my total posts on USCHO count and where they are mainly located. So, 11000 posts centered on UND MIH and I have no insights to UND Athletics. Surely you jest.
                              Perhaps your information was factual, but the tone (I know, difficult to infer), certainly seems confrontational. Although not everyone on this forum may have an in depth knowledge of UND, there are many here that have been covering WIH for years, so perhaps a little respect and humility is called for on both sides.

                              By the way: quantity does not equal quality.

                              Comment


                              • Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

                                Originally posted by Pens4 View Post
                                I would like to get your thoughts on some of the pressures that might have led to this monumental decision to cut a hockey program at UND.

                                I've always liked Brad Berry as coach and a teammate but it sure seems like he threw the women's program under the bus without a fight or so much as professional tweet of sympathy to the women's staff and players.
                                UND WIH has been known to those paying attention to the other side of college sports (budgets, media, conference moves) to be a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time. It was exasperated with the move of UND Athletics from DII to DI.

                                But, it was manageable during prosperous times (high oil and ag commodity prices and revenues flowing into state coffers): UND was getting so much state money thrown at it papering over $1.5 to $2 million losses in one program, WIH, could be tolerated.

                                Roll forward to now, when just about every line item in the 2017-2019 state, not university, state biennial budget is being slashed 20-30%, and the money to paper over the gap just is no longer there. The camel's back broke. Heck, honestly, it took baseball, men's swimming and diving, women's swimming and diving, and women's ice hockey. (And men's golf won't survive: they're falling far short of their funds raising goal to a self-sustaining endowment.)


                                At risk of mentioning UND MIH here, frankly, Bubs doesn't Tweet all that much. If Bubs has something to say he'll say it in person is my take on the man.
                                Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-26-2017, 02:53 PM.
                                The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

                                North Dakota Hockey:

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