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Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

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  • #16
    Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

    Originally posted by hab View Post
    There have been scores of posts about the systemic problems with Union's program and I don't think that there is an easy fix (non-scholarship, non-Ivy etc. etc.). That's not the point. Without their undeniable success in recruiting competitive goalies over the years they would not have had nearly the success that they have had in keeping games close. And keeping games close is not nothing. Players have come and gone in this program over the years, received a good education, played in a lot of close, fun, competitive hockey games. Agreed that it is not the most positive environment imaginable, but it is far too easy for people to sit in their armchairs and cluck cluck about the lack of progress for this program. But this is not about you, it is about the players, and their experiences have been greatly enriched by the success the team has had in recruiting goalies. My post simply affirmed that they have had some great goalies...do you disagree?
    Obviously I don't disagree that they have had some great goalies. Everyone that knows anything about Union knows that goaltending has been ALL they've had over the years. I was simply adding to the high reputation of those goalies by saying sarcastically that it's too bad they couldn't score goals too. They've all clearly saved their fair share of what would otherwise be a great many goals against over the years. They are what the program has been known for without question. So if goalies of that quality can be regularly recruited there, why can't a few scorers also be recruited? The answer is because those types of players are typically at the top end of their 19U team's depth chart which means they are being recruited by much better college programs than Union. However, if you're a goalie Union is like a dream come true because you know you'll face a ton of shots and have a chance for a lot of action and opportunity to keep improving. Frankly, if I'm a goalie I have no interest in only facing 13 shots per game as teams like Minnesota and the like allow. I'd have no interest in playing for those top programs. I'd much rather go to a team I feel I could help get better because of what I can bring to that program. I'm no goalie though. I think it's harder to convince top scorers to come to program like Union to make a difference because those players are being recruited by winning programs and they want to have a chance to play in the NCAA tournament and possibly win a national championship. Obviously that opportunity is never going to happen if they play for Union.
    Last edited by shelfit; 11-03-2015, 10:48 PM.

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    • #17
      Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

      Originally posted by shelfit View Post
      Obviously I don't disagree that they have had some great goalies. Everyone that knows anything about Union knows that goaltending has been ALL they've had over the years. I was simply adding to the high reputation of those goalies by saying sarcastically that it's too bad they couldn't score goals too. They've all clearly saved their fair share of what would otherwise be a great many goals against over the years. They are what the program has been known for without question. So if goalies of that quality can be regularly recruited there, why can't a few scorers also be recruited? The answer is because those types of players are typically at the top end of their 19U team's depth chart which means they are being recruited by much better college programs than Union. However, if you're a goalie Union is like a dream come true because you know you'll face a ton of shots and have a chance for a lot of action and opportunity to keep improving. Frankly, if I'm a goalie I have no interest in only facing 13 shots per game as teams like Minnesota and the like allow. I'd have no interest in playing for those top programs. I'd much rather go to a team I feel I could help get better because of what I can bring to that program. I'm no goalie though. I think it's harder to convince top scorers to come to program like Union to make a difference because those players are being recruited by winning programs and they want to have a chance to play in the NCAA tournament and possibly win a national championship. Obviously that opportunity is never going to happen if they play for Union.
      As noted, Union's strategy has pretty much always been to get great goaltending and hold the opponent close enough to gain a 1 goal win or tie. They usually have a win or two and a couple of ties by now through this strategy, but this year haven't been able to break through to a win. That being said, even though some of the shot counts have been heavily weighted against they haven't had a game get out of control yet as opposed to years past and have managed 4 ties (they own the 2-2 tie). But their scoring is near a low point - they are basically a 1 goal a game team. What has traditionally happened over the course of the season is that they start to get worn down from injuries, shortage of quality players (playing time high for the good ones), and opponents getting better and more seasoned themselves. Then the scores start to mount against them and they start scoring less. Given this trend and the start this year, this could end up being a very low win year for Union even by their standards.....

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      • #18
        Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

        Union lost forward Courtney Turner to another long-term injury earlier this season. That's after she missed last season with a knee injury. When healthy, she's one of their better players. Her absence doesn't help.

        Without her, Union is down to 18 total forwards/defenseman. Not much depth.

        This is the toughest part of Union's season so far: Despite a struggling offense, Union has managed leads in 5 of their first 9 games. The kicker is none of those games led to wins for Union, which is 0-5-4.

        9/25 at Mankato - Union led 1-0 and 2-1, tied 2-2
        10/3 at UConn - Union led 2-0, tied 2-2.
        10/23 vs RIT - Union led 1-0, RIT won 3-1
        10/30 at Colgate - Union led 1-0 and 2-1, tied 2-2
        10/31 at Cornell - Union led 2-0, tied 2-2.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by shelfit View Post
          Obviously I don't disagree that they have had some great goalies. Everyone that knows anything about Union knows that goaltending has been ALL they've had over the years. I was simply adding to the high reputation of those goalies by saying sarcastically that it's too bad they couldn't score goals too. They've all clearly saved their fair share of what would otherwise be a great many goals against over the years. They are what the program has been known for without question. So if goalies of that quality can be regularly recruited there, why can't a few scorers also be recruited? The answer is because those types of players are typically at the top end of their 19U team's depth chart which means they are being recruited by much better college programs than Union. However, if you're a goalie Union is like a dream come true because you know you'll face a ton of shots and have a chance for a lot of action and opportunity to keep improving. Frankly, if I'm a goalie I have no interest in only facing 13 shots per game as teams like Minnesota and the like allow. I'd have no interest in playing for those top programs. I'd much rather go to a team I feel I could help get better because of what I can bring to that program. I'm no goalie though. I think it's harder to convince top scorers to come to program like Union to make a difference because those players are being recruited by winning programs and they want to have a chance to play in the NCAA tournament and possibly win a national championship. Obviously that opportunity is never going to happen if they play for Union.

          The real sad story is that playing for a cellar dweller has NEVER worked to attract the Attention of USA hockey. It is as if, if you don't play for a hockey competitive school we've not interested. In the last 7 of 8 years they have had terrific goaltending some invited to a camp here in there especially if they were on the radar prior to attending Union. But it drops off there. My advice is if Black has a banner year and wants to play for team USA take your record and move to a program that will give you that visibility. Lundberg, Gallager, Marcinko anyone of them could have easily been a Howe, Rigsby, Machmeyer had they gone to the RIGHT program. While I believe a goalie who faces the kind of adversity that a goalie a Union see' would be a feather in the cap for team USA, CANADA or "stopping massive amounts of shots, seeing every kind of situation and knowing that if you don't pitch a shutout or give up more than 1 goal it's over, game after game" National teams "I believe" see them as not really vested in the sport! Just my 2 cents.
          Last edited by TicTacToe; 11-05-2015, 06:56 AM.

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          • #20
            Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

            I really believe it's time for Union to take a serious look at their women's hockey program, where they are currently (0-10-4 overall after tonight...imagine playing 14 games without getting a single win....., 0-4-2 and 11th place in the ECAC), their history, and what they want their future to be, and make a decision to move their women's team back to D3. It's a very expensive school that is D3 in everything else except for the two hockey teams but the landscape of men's hockey vs. women's hockey is very different in so many many ways. The women's team at Union is never going to draw enough good talent to truly compete at the D1 level like their men's team has been able to do and I don't care who the coach is/was/is going to be in the future. It's a failing situation for the women's hockey team because better recruits will almost always choose schools that offer them athletic scholarships or better financial aid packages than Union and that includes other D3 schools like the schools in the NESCAC. How hard is it to find a very good player that is very smart academically, can afford and is willing to pay the Union tuition and fees, and wants to play on a bottom level team that will never make it to their conference playoffs?! Extremely hard I would think. There's no doubt that is going to be a very rare player to find. Now try to find 4-5 of them every year?! It's just not going to happen...ever.

            The smartest thing for them to do is to move the program back to D3 where it clearly belongs. If they did move back to D3 they would have much more success and much more fun. I'm not convinced they would win the D3 national championship any time soon either but it would be so much more fun for those players to play on a team that would actually be good enough to make it to the playoffs of whatever conference they would join. They would probably fit best in the ECAC West but the main thing is for them to make the smart move back to D3 as soon as possible.

            Thoughts?
            Last edited by shelfit; 12-01-2015, 11:55 PM.

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            • #21
              Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

              Originally posted by shelfit View Post
              I really believe it's time for Union to take a serious look at their women's hockey program, where they are currently (0-10-4 overall after tonight...imagine playing 14 games without getting a single win....., 0-4-2 and 11th place in the ECAC), their history, and what they want their future to be, and make a decision to move their women's team back to D3. It's a very expensive school that is D3 in everything else except for the two hockey teams but the landscape of men's hockey vs. women's hockey is very different in so many many ways. The women's team at Union is never going to draw enough good talent to truly compete at the D1 level like their men's team has been able to do and I don't care who the coach is/was/is going to be in the future. It's a failing situation for the women's hockey team because better recruits will almost always choose schools that offer them athletic scholarships or better financial aid packages than Union and that includes other D3 schools like the schools in the NESCAC. How hard is it to find a very good player that is very smart academically, can afford and is willing to pay the Union tuition and fees, and wants to play on a bottom level team that will never make it to their conference playoffs?! Extremely hard I would think. There's no doubt that is going to be a very rare player to find. Now try to find 4-5 of them every year?! It's just not going to happen...ever.

              The smartest thing for them to do is to move the program back to D3 where it clearly belongs. If they did move back to D3 they would have much more success and much more fun. I'm not convinced they would win the D3 national championship any time soon either but it would be so much more fun for those players to play on a team that would actually be good enough to make it to the playoffs of whatever conference they would join. They would probably fit best in the ECAC West but the main thing is for them to make the smart move back to D3 as soon as possible.

              Thoughts?
              I agree that the choice for Union is likely between being a perennial bottom tier Div 1 team or a perennial top tier Div 3 team. The type of player that Union will attract will be similar in both situations...good hockey players with good academics who want to go to a high quality, smaller school. It really comes down to what is best for the players, and there I think I disagree: I think that most of the players have more fun trying to compete against the best at the Div 1 level than they would have being among the best at Div 3. It would be different if they were so weak that their games were a joke, but that is not the case: except for games against top 10 teams they almost always make their opposition play at the top of their game and always pull off a few wins and ties each year, some of them upsets. Even games against top 10 teams are not massive blowouts.

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              • #22
                Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                Originally posted by shelfit View Post
                I really believe it's time for Union to take a serious look at their women's hockey program, where they are currently (0-10-4 overall after tonight...imagine playing 14 games without getting a single win....., 0-4-2 and 11th place in the ECAC), their history, and what they want their future to be, and make a decision to move their women's team back to D3. It's a very expensive school that is D3 in everything else except for the two hockey teams but the landscape of men's hockey vs. women's hockey is very different in so many many ways. The women's team at Union is never going to draw enough good talent to truly compete at the D1 level like their men's team has been able to do and I don't care who the coach is/was/is going to be in the future. It's a failing situation for the women's hockey team because better recruits will almost always choose schools that offer them athletic scholarships or better financial aid packages than Union and that includes other D3 schools like the schools in the NESCAC. How hard is it to find a very good player that is very smart academically, can afford and is willing to pay the Union tuition and fees, and wants to play on a bottom level team that will never make it to their conference playoffs?! Extremely hard I would think. There's no doubt that is going to be a very rare player to find. Now try to find 4-5 of them every year?! It's just not going to happen...ever.

                The smartest thing for them to do is to move the program back to D3 where it clearly belongs. If they did move back to D3 they would have much more success and much more fun. I'm not convinced they would win the D3 national championship any time soon either but it would be so much more fun for those players to play on a team that would actually be good enough to make it to the playoffs of whatever conference they would join. They would probably fit best in the ECAC West but the main thing is for them to make the smart move back to D3 as soon as possible.

                Thoughts?
                Union (and really any school) can be successful at the D1 level with the right recipe of coach, resources, facilities, and players. Union has effectively had only one coach at the D1 level. What has happened there is proof that she cannot be successful in that environment, not that Union can't be successful at the D1 level. Until I see at least two more respected coaches take a shot and fail at Union on the women's side, I wouldn't give up on D1 yet. But they do need to make the change after this season just to purge the air and start over - Asano-Barcomb has had 9 years there and just can't get it done.

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                • #23
                  Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                  Originally posted by HockeyEast33 View Post
                  Union (and really any school) can be successful at the D1 level with the right recipe of coach, resources, facilities, and players. Union has effectively had only one coach at the D1 level. What has happened there is proof that she cannot be successful in that environment, not that Union can't be successful at the D1 level. Until I see at least two more respected coaches take a shot and fail at Union on the women's side, I wouldn't give up on D1 yet. But they do need to make the change after this season just to purge the air and start over - Asano-Barcomb has had 9 years there and just can't get it done.
                  I would add the RPI coach to this as well - has had WAY too many years of "trying" with less than 25% win rate. Time for a change because there's talent there and like Union academics is a draw but BONUS over Union is scholarships available! Culture of winning is not there and fresh blood will introduce a new culture. Status quo should not be acceptable at D1.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                    Originally posted by HockeyEast33 View Post
                    Union (and really any school) can be successful at the D1 level with the right recipe of coach, resources, facilities, and players. Union has effectively had only one coach at the D1 level. What has happened there is proof that she cannot be successful in that environment, not that Union can't be successful at the D1 level. Until I see at least two more respected coaches take a shot and fail at Union on the women's side, I wouldn't give up on D1 yet. But they do need to make the change after this season just to purge the air and start over - Asano-Barcomb has had 9 years there and just can't get it done.
                    Totally agree. She has no sense of urgency when it comes to recruiting. I have no idea why she's still there.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                      Originally posted by shelfit View Post
                      I really believe it's time for Union to take a serious look at their women's hockey program, where they are currently (0-10-4 overall after tonight...imagine playing 14 games without getting a single win....., 0-4-2 and 11th place in the ECAC), their history, and what they want their future to be, and make a decision to move their women's team back to D3. It's a very expensive school that is D3 in everything else except for the two hockey teams but the landscape of men's hockey vs. women's hockey is very different in so many many ways. The women's team at Union is never going to draw enough good talent to truly compete at the D1 level like their men's team has been able to do and I don't care who the coach is/was/is going to be in the future. It's a failing situation for the women's hockey team because better recruits will almost always choose schools that offer them athletic scholarships or better financial aid packages than Union and that includes other D3 schools like the schools in the NESCAC. How hard is it to find a very good player that is very smart academically, can afford and is willing to pay the Union tuition and fees, and wants to play on a bottom level team that will never make it to their conference playoffs?! Extremely hard I would think. There's no doubt that is going to be a very rare player to find. Now try to find 4-5 of them every year?! It's just not going to happen...ever.

                      The smartest thing for them to do is to move the program back to D3 where it clearly belongs. If they did move back to D3 they would have much more success and much more fun. I'm not convinced they would win the D3 national championship any time soon either but it would be so much more fun for those players to play on a team that would actually be good enough to make it to the playoffs of whatever conference they would join. They would probably fit best in the ECAC West but the main thing is for them to make the smart move back to D3 as soon as possible.

                      Thoughts?
                      Well, to be honest, Union despite its record is better than it was seven or eight years ago. Back then, they couldn't skate, shoot or defend other than their goalie. Harvard used to hold shooting galleries when we played them (I'm talking 55 shots a game). I'm not trying to be a wise *** here; just saying that they have raised the talent level to some degree although clearly not enough to compete night in, night out in the ECAC. Would another coach make a difference? So far, that hasn't happened at Brown. Sometimes breaking the culture of losing takes years, maybe even decades. I don't know if a high profile coach would take the Union job and who knows if Union would shell out the bucks to find that coach. The administration doesn't seem to be all that concerned about the losing unless someone with ties to Union can clarify their position. Perhaps they thought that if the men can succeed, why not the women? That's where coaching, attitude, commitment, discipline, focus and mental toughness come into play. It has to wear on the players after a while to not be able to finish off games and get the W. You can only hear your coach encourage or admonish you so many times before you just tune it all out.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                        Originally posted by Skate79 View Post
                        Well, to be honest, Union despite its record is better than it was seven or eight years ago. Back then, they couldn't skate, shoot or defend other than their goalie. Harvard used to hold shooting galleries when we played them (I'm talking 55 shots a game). I'm not trying to be a wise *** here; just saying that they have raised the talent level to some degree although clearly not enough to compete night in, night out in the ECAC. Would another coach make a difference? So far, that hasn't happened at Brown. Sometimes breaking the culture of losing takes years, maybe even decades. I don't know if a high profile coach would take the Union job and who knows if Union would shell out the bucks to find that coach. The administration doesn't seem to be all that concerned about the losing unless someone with ties to Union can clarify their position. Perhaps they thought that if the men can succeed, why not the women? That's where coaching, attitude, commitment, discipline, focus and mental toughness come into play. It has to wear on the players after a while to not be able to finish off games and get the W. You can only hear your coach encourage or admonish you so many times before you just tune it all out.
                        There are not enough high end players in women's hockey to have success without scholarships like the men. Union can't get those women players without scholarships. Given the circumstances, keeping scores close and trying to tie or win 8 to 10 games a year is pretty reasonable for any coach.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                          Originally posted by EastFan1 View Post
                          There are not enough high end players in women's hockey to have success without scholarships like the men.
                          This is the main reason why some teams (like Union) cannot compete with the top teams. Assuming the women's game continues to grow, it should eventually even out.
                          Minnesota Golden Gopher Hockey

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                            Originally posted by D2D View Post
                            This is the main reason why some teams (like Union) cannot compete with the top teams.
                            We've been down this path in other threads and I won't repeat other than to say I don't agree and the reasons are elsewhere on the forum. But let's look at the team history:

                            Season W L T
                            15-16 0 10 4
                            14-15 4 22 8
                            13-14 9 24 1
                            12-13 7 23 4
                            11-12 4 26 4
                            10-11 2 29 3
                            09-10 5 28 1
                            08-09 2 29 3
                            07-08 3 27 2

                            You could argue that they were making progress and on the right track through 12-13 and 13-14 where they won 7 and 9 games, respectively. They picked up a few of their wins each year against new D1 programs those years (RIT, Penn State, etc.), but they beat some established teams and you could make that argument. Now they are trending down again now that Lundberg has graduated. Folks, it is just time for someone else to take a shot at making the Union model work. 9 years is a long time to coach at a school in college athletics, particularly if you are consistently losing like this, and now the trend isn't good. It doesn't mean that CBA is a bad person, but she can't seem to find success. At no other D1 school would this trajectory be acceptable - why Union? A new coach would bring a new set of eyes and approach and things really can't get much worse...

                            WRT Brown and their new coach from the comment in the other post, I was not a fan of that hire (look it up) but the guy was left with a complete mess and without any highly sought after D1 recruits. He is basically trying to make a high level D3 team competitive at the D1 level. I think it will be at least 2 years before you can say he is failing...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                              "At no other D1 school would this trajectory be acceptable - why Union?"

                              Except for the fact that Union is not a D1 school and that's part of the problem here. A D3 tolerance for a team playing D1 hockey when they really should be playing D3 hockey instead of trying to keep scores close every weekend. That's not fun for anyone.

                              In my earlier post I stated that the landscape of women's hockey is very different from the landscape of men's hockey. There aren't the same numbers to choose from in women's hockey and those that are attracted to Union are also attracted to schools in the NESCAC with the difference being they can choose a school in the NESCAC and be in the playoffs every year instead of NEVER at Union. I really don't believe a high profile coach can make much difference in this case. Very good players will choose Ivy League and scholarship schools over Union 9 times out of 10 at least because they'll have to pay less and be able to play on playoff bound teams some of which have a chance to make it to the NCAAs. There just aren't enough very good players that are going to choose Union for so many very practical and financial reasons. The odds are too highly stacked against Union to do well in recruiting for women's hockey no matter who the coach is. I'm not defending the current coach. I'd agree she's probably an average at best coach but she's also at a school that should be playing D3 women's hockey. I bet the coach would have a very respectable record if that was the case.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Union College Dutchwomen 2015-16 thread

                                Originally posted by HockeyEast33 View Post

                                Now they are trending down again now that Lundberg has graduated.
                                Unless I'm reading the stats wrong, Union's goalie has a .943 save percentage so far this year. How does that compare against the starters for teams like Minnesota, BU, UMD and North Dakota? Freshman?

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