Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and say there will be no BTHC, and that the CHA and Atlantic Hockey will form some sort of new league for both the men and women. (Air Force ends up in the WCHA or CCHA and not in the east)

In my opinion as long as there is no BTHC there is no chance Air Force joins the WCHA and even with the BTHC I think there is only a small chance Air Force joins.

As for the CHA and AHA merging, that makes a lot of sense. However for it to happen I think RIT needs to elevate their women's program to DI and Holy Cross needs to support their program at the DI level. When you add Sacred Heart, Robert Morris, Niagara and Mercyhurst, that would be six AHA teams plus Wayne State and Sryacuse (I don't see UConn's women leaving Hockey East) that would make an eight team women's AHA.

However, I don't see Penn State having any interest in having their women's team play in a WAHA. That would leaving joining one of teh other leagues, or remaining an independant. I think that they would do OK as an independant, but with the current WCHA schedule, it would be hard to have annual series with the three Big Ten teams.

Sean

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Yes, pgb (if I may call you that), it is exactly the kind of post I had in mind.

Sure, no problem with that.

I'm also happy to see that you're willing to consider the idea of an enhanced CHA with PSU and OSU (and maybe other schools) as members.

Well, the fuller statement of my opinion isn't that different than earlier posts on this specific point. I do hold Penn State in high regard. But PSU alone wouldn't tempt me to leave the Women's WCHA, which I also hold in very high regard.

In my longer post, I was just briefly pondering the various realistic scenarios. IF a Big Ten Women's league is far off, and IF a Notre Dame or a Michigan State was also involved in the CHA, then consideration would need to be given. Those are substantial ifs. And even then I'm not sure I'd want to move. I place I high value on conference stability. Admittedly others at OSU might not share my level of loyalty to the Women's WCHA; I'm stating a personal opinion.

As for your comments, first scheduling. Penn State plans to start playing in 2012-13, only one season from now.

I wasn't sure on that, and am glad to have an authoritative answer. I could have sworn I heard two years until the start-up, but maybe that included the current season.

That makes joining a conference or planning an independent schedule this summer a priority. On the men�s side Penn State has already indicated that will be an independent for the first two seasons and then likely join a league. For what I consider obvious reasons this will likely be the newly formed BTHC. On the women�s side, with no WBTHC likely on the horizon, I think that they may wish to join a league immediately, if it makes sense and is possible.

I'd still recommend the two seasons as an independent, for the reasons mentioned previously. But of course that's Penn State's call.

If they do remain an independent for a few seasons it most likely they will end up scheduling far more eastern then western teams. The non-Ivy ECAC (12 nc games), Hockey East (13 nc games), and CHA (18 nc games) teams could all accommodate PSU much more easily than the WCHA (6 nc games) and Ivy (7 nc games) teams. I also think it unlikely for PSU to have annual series with any or all of the other Big Ten schools because of the limited nc games available for scheduling. With an independent schedule I see Penn State trying to work out one or two season schedules with 2 game home-and-home series with Mercyhurst, Robert Morris and Syracuse, along with single two game series with Ohio State, Wisconsin and Minnesota for 18 games. The other 16 games could be filled out with two game series with 4 Hockey East and 4 ECAC teams.

That's actually very close to what I was envisioning. I wasn't specific about the "fledgling" and "recently struggling" teams, partly because I didn't want to hang those labels on particular schools. But I had imagined they'd come mostly, if not entirely, from the Eastern Time Zone. As for the Big Ten teams, I agree -- we're talking about 2 games annually, not 4. At least until the Nittany Lions join the Women's WCHA.

Second, conference affiliation. With PSU starting play in 2012-13 and it now possible that the men�s BTHC will begin play in 2013-14 (PSU has stated that the new arena will open a year earlier than originally expected) it is possible that they will also want the women�s team in a league by 2013-14. That would only give us two seasons, but this is just my opinion.

Since starting this thread I have considered the idea of Penn State joining the WCHA and had much the same thoughts you had about it. I've been busy and I'm glad that you posted these thoughts.

I've also considered a 6 team WBTHC, with all Big Ten schools or with 'associate members'. However, I think this is unlikely as I don�t see Michigan or Michigan State starting a women�s program anytime soon. I also think any benefits of joining a WBTHC as an associate member would be outweighed by the negatives of such a move.

I have also been reluctant to believe the rumors regarding UM & MSU. If true, sweeping changes are likely in the works. If not, then I tend to agree: a WBTHC relying on associate members seems unlikely.

I have also thought about PSU joining Hockey East and I would like to think that the league would be open to the idea. Even though I think it would ultimately be unlikely for the basic reasons I have already mentioned, I think it would be a positive move for the league in many respects. I also think it would be a positive for Penn State in many respects, but other than the article I mentioned previously, I have heard nothing about PSU�s plans for the women�s program.

The CHA is a geographic and, at least in the beginning, competitive fit for the program. As I also think a WBTHC is a long way off, I think it would also be a natural home for Penn State.

With two in-state rivals, it is a fairly nice fit. They also don't have a history with another D-1 League to consider. While I don't want people assuming that OSU would be along for that ride, I would be supportive of such a decision made by Penn State. If it plays out that way, the Nittany Lions would be the number 1 team on my wish list for non-conference play.

The one big caveat is if, for some reason, the BTHC is nixed. If the men�s team has no BTHC to join I�m not so sure the men�s program will automatically join the CCHA. Penn State may instead look to the ECAC or Hockey East for both their men�s and women�s programs. In that event, unlikely as it may be, I see both leagues being extremely interest in having PSU join. Besides top level athletics PSU has top level academics which would fit in very well with the ECAC�s emphasis on academics and would enhance Hockey East�s academic standing.

In that scenario, I tend to agree that PSU would get multiple offers. I'd want the CCHA to do everything it could to attract the Penn State Men. If that transpired, then the Penn State Women might be even more likely to land in the CHA. Finally, I do agree that there would be greater interest from the eastern leagues if both PSU teams were available to them.

Thanks for the conversation!

[papulaisle]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

CHA for now.

[Skate79]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Perhaps, but I wouldn't quickly discount Penn State's interest in in-state rivalries with 'Hurst and RoMo.


Powers &8^]

No question that Mercyhurst brings a lot to the table. I was just thinking that Penn State's administration would lean towards Big Ten schools that they have familiarity with and possibly heated rivalries. You have to start somewhere though and Mercyhurst is as good as as any. I'm not familiar with Robert Morris so I can't comment there. The HE schools particularly BC would gain instant fan attention and would be a very good draw. I'm actually not sure how much Harvard, Dartmouth and Cornell would add to their fan interest in Happy Valley right off the bat. I can tell you that in Cambridge, it would draw a big yawn.

[pakidnyc]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

To me it seems the CHA is a natural fit -- Syracuse, Mercyhurst and Robert Morris all within a 4 1/2 hour bus ride. Wayne State is a little further but only about 6, which is an easy ride. ECAC schools typically play non-conference as well (ie. Robert Morris, Syracuse and Mercyhurst all played Cornell this year). I think some good rivalries could pop up there. And, with the complement of scholarships Penn St. is prepared to dole out, I expect them to build a a new program with success comparable to what BU has done in a short time. Another highly respected university offering NCAA D1 scholarships to women is only good for the sport! Penn State is to be commended for moving forward doing this while other Big 10 schools have hockey for men only!

[dave1381]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

And, with the complement of scholarships Penn St. is prepared to dole out, I expect them to build a a new program with success comparable to what BU has done in a short time.

I suspect Syracuse is a better a basis for comparison, considering that BU has a stronger hockey history and obvious, stable conference fit.

[myStuff]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Perhaps there is so much negativity toward PSU and/or OSU joining the CHA because the other conferences would have less of a reason to whine about the validity of the CHA conference as contenders.
Face it people, CHA teams have a lot to offer top NCAA recruits.

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Perhaps there is so much negativity toward PSU and/or OSU joining the CHA because the other conferences would have less of a reason to whine about the validity of the CHA conference as contenders.
Face it people, CHA teams have a lot to offer top NCAA recruits.

With all due respect, I think you're misreading the various comments on this thread.

My position is based primarily on the fact I like where OSU is right now, and don't want to move. As ARM put it, why bust up a successful 8 team conference? The competition is excellent, the scheduling works beautifully and members have performed extremely well against the other leagues. We have an 11 year history together, and counting. If it isn't broken, why fix it?

At the same time, I hope and believe I've spoken warmly about the CHA. The schools do have a lot offer, and make very worthy non-conference opponents.

For the most part I'll let others defend themselves. But I think a fair reading of the other posts includes considerable sentiment that the CHA would be an appropriate option for Penn State, not that the CHA would somehow be beneath PSU's standards.

[Eeyore]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I have also been reluctant to believe the rumors regarding UM & MSU. If true, sweeping changes are likely in the works.

I have it on pretty good authority that the stumbling block in Ann Arbor is Red Berenson. Not a stumbling block, but the stumbling block. There won't be a women's team there as long as he is coaching the men. Once he retires (and it's kind of like waiting for Joe Paterno to retire, as long as we're talking about PSU), I would expect momentum to build to start a woman's program. That part isn't from any authority, just knowledge from having grown up there and having two parents intimately connected to both the university and the hockey program. I know they'll be agitating for it.

[IceIsNice]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

Kind of like the Celtics not having cheerleaders until after Red Auerbach had passed (humbly lowering head........)

[brookyone]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I have it on pretty good authority that the stumbling block in Ann Arbor is Red Berenson. Not a stumbling block, but the stumbling block. There won't be a women's team there as long as he is coaching the men.

So, the dinosaurs are in fact not extinct after all.

[Hux]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I have it on pretty good authority that the stumbling block in Ann Arbor is Red Berenson. Not a stumbling block, but the stumbling block. There won't be a women's team there as long as he is coaching the men. Once he retires (and it's kind of like waiting for Joe Paterno to retire, as long as we're talking about PSU), I would expect momentum to build to start a woman's program. That part isn't from any authority, just knowledge from having grown up there and having two parents intimately connected to both the university and the hockey program. I know they'll be agitating for it.

Yeah, that has been common knowledge for some time. It has been said that BU's Jack Parker was of the same mindset until the school built Agganis, freeing up Walter Brown arena for the women to use.

[LtPowers]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I'm having trouble imagining what possible objection any coach might have to starting up a women's team in any sport.


Powers &8^]

[IceIsNice]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I'm having trouble imagining what possible objection any coach might have to starting up a women's team in any sport.


Powers &8^]

I honestly think the objection runs along the lines of "hey hon, go get me a sandwich, and while your at it, is my laundry done?"

Yep, that's the mindset, I'm afriad.

[Eeyore]

Re: Penn State's Impact on Women's Hockey

I honestly think the objection runs along the lines of "hey hon, go get me a sandwich, and while your at it, is my laundry done?"

Yep, that's the mindset, I'm afriad.

There is undoubtedly some of that. I really like Red, and admire the job he's done at Michigan, but this is a reminder that even very good people can have some very deep flaws. However, I also think that there is a strong element of not wanting to compete for ice time and other facilities.