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  • Originally posted by spwood View Post

    The only way this makes sense to me is if they have a sincere desire to move all of their other sports to Div II. That puts the hockey team in a bad place, but may make sense for the rest of the athletic department. If this is about the hockey team driving the bus, I agree that the idea seems, on face, to not be a good move.
    Everyone should check out what happened when Saint Anselm announced it was exploring NCAA Division III (there are articles and websites galore that debate the topic). The schools competed primarily in NCAA Division II with both hockey programs playing in the ECAC East as "members" who weren't eligible for postseason and it was quite the situation.

    The Hawks ended up staying as a full member of NCAA Division II, at the end of the day, and did not make the move for what apparently was a variety of reasons.

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    • Originally posted by HawksHockey View Post

      Everyone should check out what happened when Saint Anselm announced it was exploring NCAA Division III (there are articles and websites galore that debate the topic). The schools competed primarily in NCAA Division II with both hockey programs playing in the ECAC East as "members" who weren't eligible for postseason and it was quite the situation.

      The Hawks ended up staying as a full member of NCAA Division II, at the end of the day, and did not make the move for what apparently was a variety of reasons.
      Because St.A's made all these plans, got everything ready with tons of work behind the scenes before they were accepted into the Newmac for the rest of their sports. Newmac does not have Hockey so no idea where they were going for that.. They assumed it was a done deal. They learned the hard way to never assume anything. Newmac said St.A's did not fit the academic mission of its schools.. Babson, MIT, Springfield, WPI, Coast Guard, Clark and Wheaton plus Smith on the women's side. IMO D2 is like the NAIA now basically a dead end. Utica moving D2 for the rest of sports is a real bad idea. I think the D1 Hockey though is exciting because of the fan base Utica has. If Utica loses the fan base because they start losing heavy in D1 and the rest of the Sports are in a dead end D2 then the whole decision will have been a disaster.
      Last edited by Mr.Right; 04-04-2022, 02:01 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Mr.Right View Post

        Because St.A's made all these plans, got everything ready with tons of work behind the scenes before they were accepted into the Newmac for the rest of their sports. Newmac does not have Hockey so no idea where they were going for that.. They assumed it was a done deal. They learned the hard way to never assume anything. Newmac said St.A's did not fit the academic mission of its schools.. Babson, MIT, Springfield, WPI, Coast Guard, Clark and Wheaton plus Smith on the women's side. IMO D2 is like the NAIA now basically a dead end. Utica moving D2 for the rest of sports is a real bad idea. I think the D1 Hockey though is exciting because of the fan base Utica has. If Utica loses the fan base because they start losing heavy in D1 and the rest of the Sports are in a dead end D2 then the whole decision will have been a disaster.
        I'm curious why you're saying Division II is dead? I don't think it's dead at all.
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        • Originally posted by PrezdeJohnson09 View Post

          I'm curious why you're saying Division II is dead? I don't think it's dead at all.
          Obviously hockey is a different scenario altogether, but I’m curious about this as well.
          If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

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          • Besides NE-10 and about 12 New York D2 schools the rest are in the South and West...Partial Scholarships, older students, Utica will have to lower admissions standards to compete on a national level, etc etc...Yes even I love a Lemoyne or a Post but D2 used to have a strong New England/ NY presence until most in New England went D3 to get away from all the stuff I mentioned above and to save money. Maybe it's my take because my roots are New England.

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            • Originally posted by Mr.Right View Post
              Besides NE-10 and about 12 New York D2 schools the rest are in the South and West...Partial Scholarships, older students, Utica will have to lower admissions standards to compete on a national level, etc etc...Yes even I love a Lemoyne or a Post but D2 used to have a strong New England/ NY presence until most in New England went D3 to get away from all the stuff I mentioned above and to save money. Maybe it's my take because my roots are New England.
              Why will Utica have to lower their admissions standards to compete nationally? The admissions rate is 86% and the SAT between 1015 and 1210. I would have thought admissions standards is one place where they wouldn't have a problem.

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              • Originally posted by geneseo View Post

                Why will Utica have to lower their admissions standards to compete nationally? The admissions rate is 86% and the SAT between 1015 and 1210. I would have thought admissions standards is one place where they wouldn't have a problem.
                They don't have to but if they want to compete nationally forget it...they will be competing against some schools with ZERO standards in admissions. Some D2 schools maybe 20-30 out of 300 are very good schools academically but most are not great. My hunch is faculty will be up in arms with this move. There is no point to it and the money and resources that Utica will need to spend to compete will be much more than D3. President could be in trouble if this move goes wrong as well.

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                • Originally posted by Mr.Right View Post

                  They don't have to but if they want to compete nationally forget it...they will be competing against some schools with ZERO standards in admissions. Some D2 schools maybe 20-30 out of 300 are very good schools academically but most are not great. My hunch is faculty will be up in arms with this move. There is no point to it and the money and resources that Utica will need to spend to compete will be much more than D3. President could be in trouble if this move goes wrong as well.
                  I get your point but I think your are overstating it. I don't see a school like Utica having significant difficulties on this front, not with that admissions rate and those SAT scores. This is Utica we're talking about, not Ithaca.

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                  • Originally posted by JSicedog View Post

                    Fish and his crystal ball.

                    I know I am repeating myself but there is no reason to suggest this. You need to realize it is an entire new group of players. For some reason you think that it is this years Utica team jumping up to the D1 level.
                    So UU has purged the entire roster, and replaced it with D-1 caliber talent?

                    Please.

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                    • Originally posted by Ed Trefzger View Post

                      There are a lot of moving pieces behind the scenes. I have talked to several individuals around the league and in other conferences who have different ideas they favor about realignment including regional splits, separation along academic lines, two divisions within a 14-team AHA, the addition of a "NEMHA" like the NEWHA, and even realignment of the eastern leagues because there are enough teams for one or two more automatic qualifiers. There are those in college hockey also suggesting some western realignment is imminent, especially with the addition of Augustana and Lindenwood.

                      This part is my opinion: Utica has a tradition and fan base in place similar to RIT's move 17 years ago that would help make it succeed at D-I. It could be a competitive team within a short period of time.
                      Again, how did the "move-up" benefit RIT?

                      RIT is a complete afterthought in D-1.

                      Utica will be, too.

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                      • Originally posted by Mr.Right View Post

                        They don't have to but if they want to compete nationally forget it...they will be competing against some schools with ZERO standards in admissions. Some D2 schools maybe 20-30 out of 300 are very good schools academically but most are not great. My hunch is faculty will be up in arms with this move. There is no point to it and the money and resources that Utica will need to spend to compete will be much more than D3. President could be in trouble if this move goes wrong as well.
                        You’re underestimating how much the partial scholarship model affects enrollment.

                        If I am a softball player, for example, I can play at one of the MANY small, liberal arts Division III institutions throughout New England….

                        But look! A Division II school is offering me $5K in athletic aid, you’d be surprised at how many would choose the D2 (in the NE10 outside of hockey, for example) with the substandard facilities, etc.

                        Student-athletes, especially parents, love saying they’re on athletic aid scholarships. Just saying!

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                        • Originally posted by Mr.Right View Post

                          Because St.A's made all these plans, got everything ready with tons of work behind the scenes before they were accepted into the Newmac for the rest of their sports. Newmac does not have Hockey so no idea where they were going for that.. They assumed it was a done deal. They learned the hard way to never assume anything. Newmac said St.A's did not fit the academic mission of its schools.. Babson, MIT, Springfield, WPI, Coast Guard, Clark and Wheaton plus Smith on the women's side. IMO D2 is like the NAIA now basically a dead end. Utica moving D2 for the rest of sports is a real bad idea. I think the D1 Hockey though is exciting because of the fan base Utica has. If Utica loses the fan base because they start losing heavy in D1 and the rest of the Sports are in a dead end D2 then the whole decision will have been a disaster.
                          Saint Anselm would have stayed in the ECAC East/NEHC in both men’s and women’s ice hockey as they were already there.

                          As I said in an earlier post, Utica will be fine in D2 and might actually save money due to the partial scholarship model. Their facilities, outside of hockey, appear to be decent.

                          Much easier to fill rosters and improve sub-standard sports teams when you can start giving kids something like $1,000 in athletic aid to woo them from the D3 ranks.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mr.Right View Post

                            They don't have to but if they want to compete nationally forget it...they will be competing against some schools with ZERO standards in admissions. Some D2 schools maybe 20-30 out of 300 are very good schools academically but most are not great. My hunch is faculty will be up in arms with this move. There is no point to it and the money and resources that Utica will need to spend to compete will be much more than D3. President could be in trouble if this move goes wrong as well.
                            Take a look at some of the rosters (home towns) at the Division II schools in the NE10. My guess is that Utica’s recruiting areas will not change (look at Le Moyne’s rosters outside of basketball, for example).

                            I also think you’re overestimating what it takes to compete in D2… LOTS of Division III schools would beat many teams across the board in D2.

                            If I had to guess, this move for Utica is all about hockey (can play up to D1 now from D2) AND better enrollment for the non-hockey teams (partial scholarships to entice those borderline D2/D3 students).

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fishman'81 View Post

                              So UU has purged the entire roster, and replaced it with D-1 caliber talent?

                              Please.
                              Where are you getting this "purge the entire roster" stuff from? There are only 8 or 9 players who would still be eligible to play by the time they go D1. I think you see at most 3-4 still stick around with the team through the transition. The other 5 or 6 will be gone or will stick around but know they will never see the ice.

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                              • Originally posted by JSicedog View Post
                                Where are you getting this "purge the entire roster" stuff from? There are only 8 or 9 players who would still be eligible to play by the time they go D1. I think you see at most 3-4 still stick around with the team through the transition. The other 5 or 6 will be gone or will stick around but know they will never see the ice.
                                Because, Fishy Boy, as usual, has no idea what he is talking about.

                                There is going to be a transition. Heck, the first year alone they will probably still play some D3 teams like RIT did in their first year. By the time they are a full fledged D1 hockey team (i.e., they are eligible for the NCAA playoffs), their roster will be a full fledged D1 talent roster. At that point, we will truly see how well they are able to recruit that level of talent.

                                Now, having said that, I am with Fishy Boy that I don't think overall it's a good move for Utica. Like he said, if they end up in AHA, they may be very competitive within the league, but they won't get the necessary talent to make a splash on the national level; the one RIT Frozen Four run was a rare exception. AHA simply does not get that talent, and every AHA school (and soon RIT) has had a full scholarship contingent to work with for years. And then you have the added expense of an all D2 sports program, which happens to include football, and having to join a D2 league, which I assume will mean additional travel expenses.

                                However, marketing wise, it can still work. Despite Fishy Boy's extreme ignorance, RIT has benefitted from their D1 hockey program. I know someone who used to work in the RIT's marketing department, and she said a lot more more students around the country now know about RIT since their hockey team went D1. And when they made their Frozen Four run, recruiting regular students had never been easier. She said, we no longer had to explain what RIT was when we did national recruiting fairs.
                                Russell Jaslow
                                [Former] SUNYAC Correspondent
                                U.S. College Hockey Online

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