Utica College: The gang's all here.

[Russell Jaslow]

Russell-
There is a vote before the NCAA this January to waive the D1 scholarship play up rule. If the vote goes through teams that have 1 sport playing up at a D1 level will be able to offer scholarships on par with current rules. This rule was sponsored by RIT, Union and Utica...... so you tell me

That is correct. January 22 is the vote.

However that is ONLY for those schools that were at the time allowed to play one team up but were not allowed to offer scholarships anymore, because they missed the grandfather clause timing. It has NOTHING to do with future programs, because the NCAA has banned the one play up rule, and therefore doesn't have to worry about this scholarship exception ever again. (BTW, there are a lot of D3 schools sponsoring this, stating they are okay with these last remaining D3 play up schools to offer scholarships for their D1 programs.)

Which is why this talk of Utica makes no sense, unless the entire school moves to D1.

[Russell Jaslow]

Using RIT as a comparison and ignoring whether or not it is even possible, moving to D1 would probably be a mistake. RIT was a perennial favorite at the D3 level, 9 NCAA appearances in the last 17 years as a D3 program, and after 17 years as a D1 program has made the NCAAs all of 3 times. They are at best a middle of the road D1 program recruiting the same kids as the top tier D3 programs. Isn’t being a winning D3 program better?

The publicity and interest from potential students RIT got when they made the Frozen Four was astounding. Talk to anyone in the marketing and recruiting departments at RIT. RIT has definitely made out being D1 without needing to be a national power.

Having said that, you are correct, that doesn't work for everyone.

Having said that :-) I actually think Utica would work as a D1 hockey program. If they can offer scholarships, I think they have a very good recruiting tool with their arena, support, and facilities. Just look at how AIC improved immensely with a new arena and the right commitment from the school and coaching staff. I can see Utica being an almost instant contender in AHA and someone not to be taken lightly by the rest of the country. And that could be good enough for what Utica would want to get out of the venture.

[Hockeyguy1424]

The only reason I made reference to RIT was as I can remember them being the last college to make the jump from D3 hockey to D1. All other sports stayed D3 and they moved from the Empire 8 (or whatever the league was called then to Liberty)
Looking over the Liberty league and you have a couple of schools that are D1 hockey and the rest of their athletic teams are still D3.
RPI, Union, St. Lawrence and Clarkson to name a few. This was MY reasoning as to why I thought they would possibly move to Liberty league. Taking into account some schools have football some don’t. As well as other sports. And we can’t forget the womens sports as well. I don’t have time to look and compare whom has what and what level they are playing at.

This jumping to D1 hockey isn’t because Utica has had a few good season in hockey. I had heard the rumors a season or two before Covid hit, I think with Covid hitting obviously slowed or stopped whatever talks were going on at the time. I would much rather see Utica stay D3, but the UCHC unfortunately is not a strong conference and that may have something to do with the hockey move. I know a couple years back of talks that Utica wanted to join the SUNYAC, that fell apart rather quickly. We will all soon find out what’s happening. The campus is a buzz with something, to which I talked to a few people that were tight lipped.

[Fishman'81]

That is correct. January 22 is the vote.

However that is ONLY for those schools that were at the time allowed to play one team up but were not allowed to offer scholarships anymore, because they missed the grandfather clause timing. It has NOTHING to do with future programs, because the NCAA has banned the one play up rule, and therefore doesn't have to worry about this scholarship exception ever again. (BTW, there are a lot of D3 schools sponsoring this, stating they are okay with these last remaining D3 play up schools to offer scholarships for their D1 programs.)

Which is why this talk of Utica makes no sense, unless the entire school moves to D1.

(The above.) There is really no point in discussing Utica being a hockey-only D-1 program. Can't happen at this juncture.

And, ya know, there is very scant evidence of that sort of thing working, anyway. RIT had a tournament run once, but conferences like the AHA don't recruit well and all those teams end-up as 15-16 seeds at best, most years. And almost EVERY year, the AHA gets a bid only on the basis of a silly AQ, not on the basis of actual merit.

Furthermore, UC is in no way, shape, or form going to win in D-1 level with its current roster, as good as it is at the D-3 level. Top-shelf D-1 teams would absolutely hammer a UC, a Geneseo, a Norwich, etc., every night of the week and twice on Tuesdays. There's a good reason these guys were overlooked by D-1 in the first place, and it's telling that multiple D-1 cast-offs often excel in D-3.

I'm fine with Utica staying put and being a biggish fish in a small pond. I like going to The Aud and seeing UC win all the time. And I like D-3 hockey in general. I wouldn't change a thing right now.

[neumyer]

Didn’t Union win it a few years back and Quinnipiac come close?

[Russell Jaslow]

Didn’t Union win it a few years back and Quinnipiac come close?

Yes. But as members of the ECAC. And only Union didn’t offer scholarships.

[SHUCrosscheck]

Can you link us to the proposal for said rule change?

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/gov..._LegPropQA.pdf

Jump down to page 11

[UCBadger]

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/gov..._LegPropQA.pdf

Jump down to page 11

Thanks!

I find it interesting that the SUNYAC is also one of the sponsors of this rule. I know that in the distant past Oneonta was D-2 and then D-1 in soccer and dropped back to D-3 (in 2006?) after the last vote on play-up school scholarships. Any body know if they are interested in going back (if that was even possible) to D-1 if this passes? If not what is the angle for the SUNYAC schools?

While nothing surprises me, I would find it strange that UC would pass on the tuition money generated by the hockey team (more students and more tuition money is why we expanded our athletic offerings 20 years ago).

[Fishman'81]

Yes. But as members of the ECAC. And only Union didn’t offer scholarships.

Didn't Union disguise scholarships as "grants in aid"?

That used to be a common work-around for the ECAC as a whole, and the Ivies in particular.

[Russell Jaslow]

Didn't Union disguise scholarships as "grants in aid"?

That used to be a common work-around for the ECAC as a whole, and the Ivies in particular.

Yes, but you have to make sure they are evenly distributed amongst the student population. Otherwise, you get into the situation which got schools like Geneseo, Potsdam, Buffalo State, and most recently Elmira into trouble.

The Ivies are a peculiar situation. By the NCAA rules, they have every right to offer scholarships. They are full fledged D1 members. It is their own institutional and league decision to not offer scholarships. So, how they police that is entirely up to them. The NCAA has nothing to do with that.

[Fishman'81]

Yes, but you have to make sure they are evenly distributed amongst the student population. Otherwise, you get into the situation which got schools like Geneseo, Potsdam, Buffalo State, and most recently Elmira into trouble.

The Ivies are a peculiar situation. By the NCAA rules, they have every right to offer scholarships. They are full fledged D1 members. It is their own institutional and league decision to not offer scholarships. So, how they police that is entirely up to them. The NCAA has nothing to do with that.

I actually have no problem with that calculus, as disingenuous as it is at face-value. The Ivies have always cheated, too, they just cheated more effectively.

Seems to me that all those across-the-board BS "rules" will fly out of the window very soon. There's always a work-around for the athletes anyway. We've seen at the D-3 level plenty of times, even when no real money was involved... And big-time D-1 sports? Forget about any integrity there.

These days, with the name/image/likeness policy, and adding-on the transfer portal, why even pretend that college sports are "amateur" endeavors anyway? It's going to be a dog-eat-dog deal, and to Hell with the hindmost. That might even happen to a tiny extent in D-3 hockey. (As in, a local commercial for this or that).

Personally, I don't have an issue with it. I can't imagine a star player in ANY D-3 hockey school lining his pockets via that sort of thing, but I think he should be allowed to test the waters; maybe sell a used car or tout a pizzeria to pick up a few bucks.

[NU Pastime]

I actually have no problem with that calculus, as disingenuous as it is at face-value. The Ivies have always cheated, too, they just cheated more effectively.

Seems to me that all those across-the-board BS "rules" will fly out of the window very soon. There's always a work-around for the athletes anyway. We've seen at the D-3 level plenty of times, even when no real money was involved... And big-time D-1 sports? Forget about any integrity there.

These days, with the name/image/likeness policy, and adding-on the transfer portal, why even pretend that college sports are "amateur" endeavors anyway? It's going to be a dog-eat-dog deal, and to Hell with the hindmost. That might even happen to a tiny extent in D-3 hockey. (As in, a local commercial for this or that).

Personally, I don't have an issue with it. I can't imagine a star player in ANY D-3 hockey school lining his pockets via that sort of thing, but I think he should be allowed to test the waters; maybe sell a used car or tout a pizzeria to pick up a few bucks.

The whole thing really is a bit ridiculous. When Mary Hardin-Baylor won the DIII football championship last week I looked to see whether it was their second or third title. It was their third, but technically their second since they had to vacate their first title from 2016. The reason? The coach allowed a player to borrow his car for an extended period of time. They had to vacate a national championship because a player borrowed a 10-year-old Subaru.

I don't know where NIL will lead. I have mixed feelings about it, but so far it hasn't blown up DI despite quarterbacks signing multi-million dollar deals. Speaking for Norwich, I can definitely see an NU player getting a deal to promote the local sandwich shop or pizza. Maybe they just get $100 in gift cards or something, but that'd be worth it. More power to them. Players at Utica or Oswego might have more opportunities.

[Fishman'81]

The whole thing really is a bit ridiculous. When Mary Hardin-Baylor won the DIII football championship last week I looked to see whether it was their second or third title. It was their third, but technically their second since they had to vacate their first title from 2016. The reason? The coach allowed a player to borrow his car for an extended period of time. They had to vacate a national championship because a player borrowed a 10-year-old Subaru.

I don't know where NIL will lead. I have mixed feelings about it, but so far it hasn't blown up DI despite quarterbacks signing multi-million dollar deals. Speaking for Norwich, I can definitely see an NU player getting a deal to promote the local sandwich shop or pizza. Maybe they just get $100 in gift cards or something, but that'd be worth it. More power to them. Players at Utica or Oswego might have more opportunities.

Good post.

I'm of the opinion that the NIL deal will blow-up big-time D-1 sports, however. I'm thinking that the elite guys who view college sports as merely a stepping-stone to the professional ranks will all end up in a few select conferences with huge TV deals (via either the recruitment process or the portal), and that there'll be a de-facto underclass among all the other conferences, none of whom will have a sniff at the playoffs.

As you say, I don't see it having much of any impact on D-3 in any sport, though. Our little cottage-industry probably won't change much. I can't imagine that guys will choose a Utica or a Nazareth over a Norwich or an Adrian for the sake of a modestly more valuable gift card. At best, that sort of thing will just be a fun little bonus.

BUT... A QB at Alabama, a point guard at Duke..? Those guys can make some serious endorsement money, and that'll be a HUGE recruiting advantage, even for the one-and-done crowd.

[sshablak]

Pretty sure I read a few months ago that the Alabama qb(a frosh who hadn't played a single down) already had made over a million dollars before the season even started !

[Fishman'81]

Pretty sure I read a few months ago that the Alabama qb(a frosh who hadn't played a single down) already had made over a million dollars before the season even started !

A million seems like a lot, considering, but some of these 5-Star kids will definitely make some serious dough.

For instance, I'm sure that you remember the hoopla surrounding Carmelo Anthony coming to SU. If the NIL was in place then, he would have raked-in the bucks before, during and after the NC, while still enrolled.

I don't have an opinion as to how much, but high 6-figures doesn't seem unreasonable.