Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

[Hockeyfan2113]

Re: Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

At some point in time, the NCAA is going to have to get draconian with the (for lack of a better term) cheaters. Slaps on the wrist will not deter. Forfeiting games and vacating championships will.

Agreed. Now its possible that any of these teams over the last few years have gotten nailed, didn't actually realize anything was wrong until someone picked up on it whether in house or NCAA offices (See Hobart Lax).

However rule breakers should be punished. Neumann as an example, won a championship and elevated their program to perennial top 15 status. But when the NCAA found out later (few years after), nothing was really done and no one cared after a week or two. While I am not a fan of punishing players for coach/administration cheating, mistakes, covering up, etc, a harsher penalty than "probation" needs to be enforced. Possibly coach getting suspended for a few games or something along those lines.

Then as Prof said, it is very tricky to balance the international athletes with international students. At many of these schools, they simply do not get a lot of internationals to balance it out particularly if you open programs that are dedicated/focused to draw international students. Its generally hard to convince non-athletic students to come to your SUNY school or small school in a small location (ECAC-W).

The difficulties of D3 continue....

[NUProf]

Re: Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

One process which makes sense to my mind would be financial aid process in which athletic Q
and extra-curricular status is invisible, and the only information that the FA people have are the academic records, family financial information from the FAFSA, and any extenuating family circumstances. Even names would be withheld. It would be a violation if the athletic dept was involved in any way in helping the student apply for FA. Kind of like a double blind clinical trial. Nobody would know what the outcome would be until the application was processed. By definition, there would be no advantage or disadvantage in the process for any group of students. The place where violations could occur would be in the creation of packages by the Athletics Office that would be intended to attract groups of athletes, such as cross country team being involved in the creation of special incentives for Kenyans, when there was no academic initiation of such a program and no campus life or academic goals that would be furthered by such a program

[nescachockey]

Re: Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

One process which makes sense to my mind would be financial aid process in which athletic Q
and extra-curricular status is invisible, and the only information that the FA people have are the academic records, family financial information from the FAFSA, and any extenuating family circumstances. Even names would be withheld. It would be a violation if the athletic dept was involved in any way in helping the student apply for FA. Kind of like a double blind clinical trial. Nobody would know what the outcome would be until the application was processed. By definition, there would be no advantage or disadvantage in the process for any group of students. The place where violations could occur would be in the creation of packages by the Athletics Office that would be intended to attract groups of athletes, such as cross country team being involved in the creation of special incentives for Kenyans, when there was no academic initiation of such a program and no campus life or academic goals that would be furthered by such a program

This sounds equitable, but do you really think it is feasible? If you don't offer de-facto scholarships through financial aid, SAs will go to places that do offer it. I admit to ignorance on how prevalent this is in division III, but for the ivies in division I, FA is the only way they can field an even remotely competitive team against schools with scholarship players.

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

One process which makes sense to my mind would be financial aid process in which athletic Q
and extra-curricular status is invisible, and the only information that the FA people have are the academic records, family financial information from the FAFSA, and any extenuating family circumstances. Even names would be withheld. It would be a violation if the athletic dept was involved in any way in helping the student apply for FA. Kind of like a double blind clinical trial. Nobody would know what the outcome would be until the application was processed. By definition, there would be no advantage or disadvantage in the process for any group of students. The place where violations could occur would be in the creation of packages by the Athletics Office that would be intended to attract groups of athletes, such as cross country team being involved in the creation of special incentives for Kenyans, when there was no academic initiation of such a program and no campus life or academic goals that would be furthered by such a program

I just looked at Cortland's Cross Country and Track teams, 0 from Kenya. How many of those foreign runners come over and become US citizens before college? I'm going to let Prez handle this one, as he ran in DIII but I just looked at Cortland and they have 0 from Kenya. (No idea who is good in X-Country but Cortland is good at everything so why not).

Second, you're right, there are plenty of loopholes and will always be, to give athletes more $$ off their bill to come to DIII. However I dissagree with your process. A school like Plattsburgh has a large international program, other schools do too. I don't care if teams give them out as long as there are two things followed.

A. Just like the NCAA says, have MORE NON ATHLETES
and
B. There needs to be a % cap, period (private vs public)

When SUNY School A is giving $5,000 off a $15,000 bill and SUNY School B is giving $5,000 off a $10,000 bill.....but yet Private School C is giving $15,000 off a $25,000 bill.

To me is should be a % off and thats it. SUNY school A can give 9% off, B 9% off, and Private School C 9% off. If SUNY School C can not afford to give their foreign students 9%, thats on them.

Hockeyfan,

While I do agree with what you said about not knowing, that's why I put in the other thread that there is a differece between 51% Athletes / 49% Non-Athletes to the Neumann 115 grants handed out to athletes out of the 118 total grants. Then again that's like signing 4,000 autographs for free for sport collectors and not taking any money....right...and then sit out a half against Rice....lol Yet have a dinner with an NFL star, sit 10 games....

[admiral0417]

Re: Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

I wish they would throw out all these half-baked recruiting rules and bring back the old days when the best players got the best deals and if the other teams didn't like it ... tough !! Something tells me those days aren't coming back. I know on my recruiting trips in the late '70's, I heard tales from the other players how good they had it. At least everyone knew how it worked back then and there was no misunderstandings. Today's recruiting is ultra transparent and teams still get in hot water. >

[Birds]

Re: Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

At some point in time, the NCAA is going to have to get draconian with the (for lack of a better term) cheaters. Slaps on the wrist will not deter. Forfeiting games and vacating championships will.

By the way, what ever happened at Oswego, besides dropping the int. aid? Any carry over to this year?

[norm1909]

Re: Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

BTW, Lake Forest's student body exceeds 12% international students. (Babson exceeds 26% & Plattsburgh 6% ~ 350 students).

[NUProf]

This sounds equitable, but do you really think it is feasible? If you don't offer de-facto scholarships through financial aid, SAs will go to places that do offer it. I admit to ignorance on how prevalent this is in division III, but for the ivies in division I, FA is the only way they can field an even remotely competitive team against schools with scholarship players.

If FA were limited to the FAFSA "gap", at least theoretically athletes would have the same net cost of attendance everywhere. If the FC is calculated at 10,000, and the cost of school A is 30,000 and the cost of school B is 40,000, school A would be limited to giving him 20K and school B could give 30k. The family would shell out the same amount for either school. If some schools can't reach that level, that is their problem. As soon as you exceed the gap, the school should be flagged for excess aid

[LakerEagleLover]

Re: Utica sanctioned by NCAA for FA Violations

By the way, what ever happened at Oswego, besides dropping the int. aid? Any carry over to this year?

Birds - this is what I wrote on the other Utica thread...

In reference to Oswego, the difference is there was active management and transparency across athletics, admissions and administration - it was a drop in overall international student enrollment, despite the school's aggressive recruitment of students from across the globe - not just our neighbors to the North - that caused the administration to eliminate the program as it was written and move all aid to need and performance based awards. Oz managed the program according to NCAA guidelines, but could not sustain International enrollment - the President pulled the plug...the aftermath has been well documented on USCHO...

Utica, according to its own admission, did not have the proper controls in place to properly manage the program and stay in compliance....

When the Oswego program was eliminated, I believe student Athletes were given the choice to continue to receive aid and not play or stay and play with any aid to be determined by need or academic performance. Virtually all the incoming women's recruits went elsewhere - I don't think many/any existing players left, and it has been suggested on this board a number of recruits on the men's side went elsewhere, but I don't know the facts on that point.

It has been noted that Oz has 7 or 8 USA born recruits coming in this year....which is significantly more than I can recall in recent years - probably more than the accumulated total since Gosek took over.