Heenan Finalist for UAA job

[admiral0417]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

Since when did Utica become an elite program (see Oswego, Platty, Norwich, SNC) ?? A quick look at the historical FACTS: In the past 10 seasons Utica is 163-107-26, which is OK, but nowhere near the others. 3 losing seasons (which is more than Oswego or Platty has had in their 38 years). And most importantly, 1 NCAA appearance and ZERO conference titles !!!

Maybe Utica fans should compare themselves with Stout, Babson, Geneseo instead. Thats far more accurate IMO.

[VT bragging rights]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

Looking at this... Looks like Norwich may be the REAL "Don't play on the road often" culprit.

2011-2012 Plattsburgh & Elmira @ Middlebury PrimeLink !!

Playing Dartmouth College in a scrimmage @ Dartmouth the last two years certainly did not hurt them from making the final four.

[Fishman'81]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

Let me help you notice. Here are the OOC Away games for these teams for the last 5 years. This does not include neutral site games.



Oswego
12-13: Hobart, Elmira, Utica
11-12: Elmira, Utica, Hamilton
10-11: Elmira, Utica, Hobart
09-10: Elmira, Utica, Hamilton
08-09: Norwich, St. Norbert, Hobart




Utica
12-13: Oswego, Cortland, Western New England
11-12: Oswego
10-11: Buffalo State, Oswego, Suffolk, Wentworth
09-10: Oswego, Hamilton
08-09: UMASS-Dartmouth

OK, so Utica's road-games vs. the West don't count, but Oswego's do? Please...

I actually bothered to dig-up the KRACH from last year, and the top Eastern SOS teams were rated as follows:

1. Utica
2. Hobart
3. Neumann
4. M'ville
5. Norwich
6. Elmira

You've made my argument for me; thanks! To criticize the East's hardest schedule as somehow being too soft is, well, ____.
(Yes, Utica is obliged to play a difficult road-schedule by dint of being in the W, but that fact doesn't make winning those games any easier, am I right..? Who cares who they invite to The Aud, when they already play the toughest slate in the East? )

Realize that while I'm knocking your faulty reasoning, I'm not knocking OSU re: their scheduling. On the contrary, I love how they aggressively pursue the West. They don't duck anybody, and that's a real credit to the program, and makes for some great games to watch. The only reason the Lakers' SOS is not particularly stellar is that they play in the SUNYAC; it's not because they don't try to improve it by taking-on all comers. I truly admire that well-run program.

[Fishman'81]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

Admiral, nobody is looking back that far, aside from guys like you. I was talking 2012/2013... This is a new day.

I'm expecting Utica to remain prominent in the short-term, now that it can recruit from the OJHL, the BCHL, and other leagues north of the border. UC has had its hands tied in that regard until recently, while OSU, Platty, and every other good D-3 program was stocked with Junior-league washouts in their early-to-mid 20's. Utica, on the other hand, had to attempt to compete while dressing 18 year-olds from America. It was men vs. boys back then.

Not any more, fellas.

[LakerFan99]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

OK, so Utica's road-games vs. the West don't count, but Oswego's do? Please...

I actually bothered to dig-up the KRACH from last year, and the top Eastern SOS teams were rated as follows:

1. Utica
2. Hobart
3. Neumann
4. M'ville
5. Norwich
6. Elmira

You've made my argument for me; thanks! To criticize the East's hardest schedule as somehow being too soft is, well, ____.
(Yes, Utica is obliged to play a difficult road-schedule by dint of being in the W, but that fact doesn't make winning those games any easier, am I right..? Who cares who they invite to The Aud, when they already play the toughest slate in the East? )

Realize that while I'm knocking your faulty reasoning, I'm not knocking OSU re: their scheduling. On the contrary, I love how they aggressively pursue the West. They don't duck anybody, and that's a real credit to the program, and makes for some great games to watch. The only reason the Lakers' SOS is not particularly stellar is that they play in the SUNYAC; it's not because they don't try to improve it by taking-on all comers. I truly admire that well-run program.

Remind me again, who said "I don't put much faith in KRACH" after Utica lost in the semis? Oh yes.

KRACH is the almighty, except when Utica loses...

[Ozz]

OK, so Utica's road-games vs. the West don't count, but Oswego's do? Please...

I actually bothered to dig-up the KRACH from last year, and the top Eastern SOS teams were rated as follows:

1. Utica
2. Hobart
3. Neumann
4. M'ville
5. Norwich
6. Elmira

You've made my argument for me; thanks! To criticize the East's hardest schedule as somehow being too soft is, well, ____.
(Yes, Utica is obliged to play a difficult road-schedule by dint of being in the W, but that fact doesn't make winning those games any easier, am I right..? Who cares who they invite to The Aud, when they already play the toughest slate in the East? )

Realize that while I'm knocking your faulty reasoning, I'm not knocking OSU re: their scheduling. On the contrary, I love how they aggressively pursue the West. They don't duck anybody, and that's a real credit to the program, and makes for some great games to watch. The only reason the Lakers' SOS is not particularly stellar is that they play in the SUNYAC; it's not because they don't try to improve it by taking-on all comers. I truly admire that well-run program.

When talking about OOC games, Utica's games against ECAC-W teams do not count and Oswego's do. This conversation has been strictly about OOC games, if you want to bring up the total schedule, that's a different conversation. But much like your opinion on KRACH has bounced back and forth, you use arguments that are convenient at the time..

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

When talking about OOC games, Utica's games against ECAC-W teams do not count and Oswego's do. This conversation has been strictly about OOC games, if you want to bring up the total schedule, that's a different conversation. But much like your opinion on KRACH has bounced back and forth, you use arguments that are convenient at the time..

That's Fishman's motto. He has it tattooed on his forehead.

[Fishman'81]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

Laker Fan, never said that in the context of the East... I said something like "The KRACH is not a religion."

I still think it's the most useful of all the dubious D-3 metrics, if only due to its transparency, and I'd be happy to hear a cogent argument to the contrary... There is nothing else better than it out there right now.

[Fishman'81]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

Ozz, a tough road-game is a tough road-game, and Utica plays plenty of them every year. To sort them out in terms of whether they're OOC or not is making a distinction without a difference.

[Fishman'81]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

OK, Russell, who do you think played the toughest schedule in the East last year? And which metric do you find most accurate? I'm curious as to how you'll spin this.

[Ozz]

Ozz, a tough road-game is a tough road-game, and Utica plays plenty of them every year. To sort them out in terms of whether they're OOC or not is making a distinction without a difference.

Then why did you bring up OOC road games to begin the conversation?

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

If the ECAC West is so dominant and almighty how come only two of the current ECAC West teams have played in the National Championship? And one of which probably deserve an * next to it.

No not saying the ECAC West is the ECACNE but if they were so good (a la "we play tough road game") you'd think they could get some teams in the Championship game once and a while.

Sure they have good inter conference records when you play the majority against the bottom half teams. In return gives them all inflated records and thus high SOS. Again it doesn't mean they are not good, but they are not head and shoulders above everyone else.

Utica is heading in the right direction, yes, but one year does not put you at the top. As I said, Fredonia was once one of the best in DIII for two years in the 90s. Geneseo in the mid 00's. Going to the Cardinal Classic, Norwich tournament, actually going to a place like Amherst, Bowdoin, Williams is what will make the program respectable. Sure teams like Salve and WNEC want to come to Utica, 150 fans to 3500 is a plus, but your elite teams don't want to give the time of day to a team/coach who doesn't reciprocate. Heck even Cortland got fed up with it.

[joecct]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

It's a # not an *.

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

OK, Russell, who do you think played the toughest schedule in the East last year? And which metric do you find most accurate?

I don't give a cr*p. I just enjoy watching you twist your own debates into pretzel like logic.

Ha, ha, get the pun? Oh, how do I do it?

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Heenan Finalist for UAA job

Then why did you bring up OOC road games to begin the conversation?

Oh, that's an easy answer, and of course I know you asked it rhetorically...

Fishman will always change the rules of his argument as soon as you point out the fallacy of his argument. It's a very entertaining game he plays ... if you enjoy watching train wrecks.