Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

[Happy]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

That's better expressed as the NCAA Championship Tournament and Consolation National Invitational Tournament. The winner of the NIT has trouble claiming to be any better than 66th.

In the past, it was the opposite, with teams skipping the NCAA to play NIT. but that was half a decade ago.

[goldy_331]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

In the past, it was the opposite, with teams skipping the NCAA to play NIT. but that was half a decade CENTURY ago.

I think you meant this.

[joecct]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Nothing official yet. The architects and construction management company were in town all last week for meetings. Core sample drilling at the site is underway.

This shows the location of the arena

*****http://www.gopsusports.com/blog/ice-facility-sitemap-091710.jpg******

If the hockey and hoops teams are home on the same weekend, will there be enough parking?

[bigmrg74]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

If the hockey and hoops teams are home on the same weekend, will there be enough parking?

I would think that they would stagger the events so that they're not all going on at the same time. It would be pretty easy to schedule the Basketball games for the early afternoon, and then have the saturday night game at 7 or so. Most schools don't have hoops on Friday night, only in a blue moon or its Tournement Time. You could easily have the Men's bball tip off at 1, women's BBall at 3, and you would still have plenty of time for the hockey crowd to show up and tailgate.

[moose97]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

If the hockey and hoops teams are home on the same weekend, will there be enough parking?

I would think that they would stagger the events so that they're not all going on at the same time. It would be pretty easy to schedule the Basketball games for the early afternoon, and then have the saturday night game at 7 or so. Most schools don't have hoops on Friday night, only in a blue moon or its Tournement Time. You could easily have the Men's bball tip off at 1, women's BBall at 3, and you would still have plenty of time for the hockey crowd to show up and tailgate.

The University of Minnesota's basketball and hockey rinks are at least as close to each other (across the street), so I can't imagine it'd be a problem with scheduling, especially if the BTHC came about and the could co-ordinate these things better than in seperate conferences...

[Scally Lama]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

It is beginning to look like there were two different "club" National Titles back then. Looks like UAH has claim to US National Collegiate Club Hockey Championships while Penn State has claim to the National Invitational Club Hockey Tournament. Looks like you had to win some league to be in the US National Collegiate Club Tournament, while the National Invitational Tournament was by invite.

Kind of like hoops has the NCAA Bracket and the NIT Bracket.

Now that it's being talked about, I actually remember looking at one of our older programs a (really) long time ago, and it listed two different national champions for several years in the early and mid 80s. The NIT "won," so to speak, and was the only national championship by the end of the 80s - our 1990 championship was also an NIT and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody's ever challenged our claim to it.

I'm not positive about this, but I believe PSU was between conference affiliations in 1984, so the nature of the USNCCHC's selection might explain why we were in the other one.

[bignick33]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

If the hockey and hoops teams are home on the same weekend, will there be enough parking?

I bet that they'll just stagger the scheduling. BC's hoops and hockey teams share an arena, and it's not an issue.

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Now that it's being talked about, I actually remember looking at one of our older programs a (really) long time ago, and it listed two different national champions for several years in the early and mid 80s. The NIT "won," so to speak, and was the only national championship by the end of the 80s - our 1990 championship was also an NIT and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody's ever challenged our claim to it.

I'm not positive about this, but I believe PSU was between conference affiliations in 1984, so the nature of the USNCCHC's selection might explain why we were in the other one.

Note that Miami and OH were both invited to the USNCCHC as independents. The "other one" appears to be nothing more than AZ inviting PSU to visit Tucson for some games after neither qualified for the USNCCHC. That makes the claim of being "1984 ACHA National Champions" just plain silly on multiple levels, no matter how long the claim has been made.

[Scally Lama]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Note that Miami and OH were both invited to the USNCCHC as independents. The "other one" appears to be nothing more than AZ inviting PSU to visit Tucson for some games after neither qualified for the USNCCHC. That makes the claim of being "1984 ACHA National Champions" just plain silly on multiple levels, no matter how long the claim has been made.

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first?

Also, let's be honest, neither of us knows the exact circumstances behind the second tournament. You say it was a consolation tournament, like basketball's NIT. I say it could have been a number of things. Maybe there was a disagreement between two factions over something or other (given what you've said, site selection seems like a possibility), and a subset of club schools started a second tournament more in line with what they wanted to happen.

What's silly to me is not recognizing that things like this happen in an underregulated environment (see pre-BCS major college football). Who selected teams for the USNCCHC and (according to you) deemed Miami and Ohio the most worthy independents, and on what basis did they do so of the presumably numerous candidates? The current ACHA field is based on a poll, I have to assume there wasn't one back then. Who awarded UAH - or PSU, for that matter - the trophy at the end of the thing? Why are fans of a program with NCAA-sanctioned national championships sniping at us over a club championship from almost 30 years ago, especially when we're willing to sit back, learn some history, and respect your accomplishments?

[wsp67326]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first?

Also, let's be honest, neither of us knows the exact circumstances behind the second tournament. You say it was a consolation tournament, like basketball's NIT. I say it could have been a number of things. Maybe there was a disagreement between two factions over something or other (given what you've said, site selection seems like a possibility), and a subset of club schools started a second tournament more in line with what they wanted to happen.

What's silly to me is not recognizing that things like this happen in an underregulated environment (see pre-BCS major college football). Who selected teams for the USNCCHC and (according to you) deemed Miami and Ohio the most worthy independents, and on what basis did they do so of the presumably numerous candidates? The current ACHA field is based on a poll, I have to assume there wasn't one back then. Who awarded UAH - or PSU, for that matter - the trophy at the end of the thing? Why are fans of a program with NCAA-sanctioned national championships sniping at us over a club championship from almost 30 years ago, especially when we're willing to sit back, learn some history, and respect your accomplishments?

It's just a mystifying issue to me. I certainly didn't mean to come across as sniping, but, well, it was such a bizarre claim that I had to inquire about the seeds of such a claim from PSU's perspective. I have no idea what happened, I just know that UAH was the dominant collegiate club hockey team of the early 80s and to see another team make a claim to its accomplishments was puzzling (and, well, a bit offensive, I have to admit; though it's not really a huge deal in the scheme of things). In terms of 1984, though, Northern Arizona was the champion of the Rocky Mountain Club Hockey League (or whatever it was called then), the same league of which Arizona was a member. Back then the leagues had actual standings and, at least prior to that time, actual conference tournaments, so whoever was considered league champion was chosen for the tournament, to my recollection. I don't think PSU was in a league, actually, way back when, and probably functioned in an independent status at that time (much like the football team in the same timeframe). The prior year PSU apparently received sufficient support to be selected to the National Championship tournament. I don't know what would have happened thereafter. Considering, as well, that UAH took 3 of 4 from PSU that season, and Miami was, for all intents and purposes, the top "ranked" team at that time (I believe they entered the tournament undefeated, if memory serves)(home ice advantage was HUGE in the final game of the championship that year, not from a refereeing perspective, but the fans were very vocal and supportive), the six teams that were participants in the tournament that year were the top club teams in the country that year, without question. I can't explain the ACHA's ultimate position (UAH left club hockey after the 1985 tournament which, again, North Dakota State, won) in terms of what "tournament" was more important, or whatever, either. Just a puzzling thing to see from my (our) standpoint, if that makes sense. I'm sure there is someone at the ACHA that could shed some light on this. (And yes, this is my fault for opening up some a topic of conversation.) We UAH supporters do have a collective chip on our shoulder, again, admittedly, about the treatment our program has received lately, and any perceived denigration of the program's accomplishments (no matter how long ago) just pushes the wrong buttons, I suppose. I greatly appreciate your support for our team's plight. We greatly support PSU's entry into DI, too, as I've noted. Cheers.

[Happy]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first?

Also, let's be honest, neither of us knows the exact circumstances behind the second tournament. You say it was a consolation tournament, like basketball's NIT. I say it could have been a number of things. Maybe there was a disagreement between two factions over something or other (given what you've said, site selection seems like a possibility), and a subset of club schools started a second tournament more in line with what they wanted to happen.

What's silly to me is not recognizing that things like this happen in an underregulated environment (see pre-BCS major college football). Who selected teams for the USNCCHC and (according to you) deemed Miami and Ohio the most worthy independents, and on what basis did they do so of the presumably numerous candidates? The current ACHA field is based on a poll, I have to assume there wasn't one back then. Who awarded UAH - or PSU, for that matter - the trophy at the end of the thing? Why are fans of a program with NCAA-sanctioned national championships sniping at us over a club championship from almost 30 years ago, especially when we're willing to sit back, learn some history, and respect your accomplishments?

Whatever you do, don't mention any of this to a UND fan, they will ram 7>0 down your throat for a thousand years, and don't forget it.

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first? ...

Regarding "yours", I take absolutely no ownership in it. It was what it was, the National Collegiate Club Hockey Championship tournament. Regarding "die off", there's no indication that it "died off" at all. After North Dakota State won the 1985 tournament in Huntsville, they then went on to win it each year until PSU finally won it in 1990.
The NDSU and ACHA websites mesh quite nicely regarding that chain of history with the creation of the ACHA in 1991.
http://www.hometeamsonline.com/teams...ckey&p=records
http://achahockey.org/page.php?page_id=2187

... Also, let's be honest, neither of us knows the exact circumstances behind the second tournament. ...

Likewise, there's nothing to indicate that there were any more than two teams in that "tournament". You might be able to find some game records on that subject though.

... Why are fans of a program with NCAA-sanctioned national championships sniping at us over a club championship from almost 30 years ago, especially when we're willing to sit back, learn some history, and respect your accomplishments? ...

Nobody is "sniping" at anything. Having an appreciation for history, it's relevant to remind people that there was no ACHA in 1984. Given that fact, I'd be embarrassed to have a banner alluding to such hanging in my barn. I look at it as telling a friend that their "fly is open".

It's also relevant for historical accuracy to provide records/images that clearly show a chain of continuity.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_h...mages/programs
If I was interested in PSU hockey history and felt that there was any justifiable claim to "National" championships back then, the following questions would be gnawing at me:
1. Were there any more than two teams at the games in AZ?
2. With AZ and PSU both being part of the "process" in 1982 and 1983, what led to their not honoring it in 1984 and 1985?
3. Given that the established process had the established 1984 National Collegiate Club Hockey Championship tournament being played elsewhere, what justification was given for claiming that the AZ games had any "National" relevance?
4. If the AZ games had any "National" relevance, why were the Midwest Collegiate Hockey Association Champions, , the Central States Collegiate Hockey League Champions, the Mid Central Collegiate Hockey Association Champions, and especially the Rocky Mountain Collegiate Hockey Association Champions not there?

I'm glad I'm not a PSU fan, because I could see myself wasting a lot time researching those questions. As it is, I spent more time than I wanted with this (curse you wsp67326 ); but I did enjoy the research.

[Patman]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first?

I really hope this isn't what we have to deal with in a Penn State era. Revisionist history is so much fun.

[UML]

In the past, it was the opposite, with teams skipping the NCAA to play NIT. but that was half a decade ago.

Thats probably how Holy Cross won an NCAA championship in bouncy.

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

For the historical record, I've added a few more scans to go along with the cover pages.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_h...ages/programs/
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_h...pProgPage3.jpg
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_h...ampPreProg.jpg
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_h...ProgPage28.jpg