Ccha 2010-2011

[Jeff_Jackson_for_Pres.]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

...Cam Fowler who backed out on ND last year and went to Windsor. He passed on a 30k education...

It's almost $50,000 this year (though that's everything). He passed on a scholarship worth nearly a quarter of a million dollars. Granted, if he makes it in the NHL, he could make that much in half a season, but professional sports is no guarantee for a lifetime of security, whereas any degree from Notre Dame, even in tiddlywinks, is security.

You're correct, sadly, that it's too often the (misleading) case. Have you thought about asking Paul Kelly for a job at College Hockey, Inc.?

[Twisted Wrister]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

London draws 10,000+ some nights and have signed would be colleges to contracts of over $100,000. Go to school, if it's not a good fit transfer or then go over to the OHL. Burt once you sign that contract they got you, no turning back, other options gone.

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

London draws 10,000+ some nights and have signed would be colleges to contracts of over $100,000. Go to school, if it's not a good fit transfer or then go over to the OHL. Burt once you sign that contract they got you, no turning back, other options gone.

You sure about that? I have never seen nor heard of contracts like that in the OHL, that seems like an absurd number.

It's almost $50,000 this year (though that's everything). He passed on a scholarship worth nearly a quarter of a million dollars. Granted, if he makes it in the NHL, he could make that much in half a season, but professional sports is no guarantee for a lifetime of security, whereas any degree from Notre Dame, even in tiddlywinks, is security.

You're correct, sadly, that it's too often the (misleading) case. Have you thought about asking Paul Kelly for a job at College Hockey, Inc.?

Ha would be nice.

He can make the NHL whether he goes to the "O" or Notre Dame, so that argument is mute. And you are absolutely correct a waterboarding degree from Notre Dame would get you further than a Masters in business from half the college hockey schools. ( being sarcastic of course ) You just really wonder what kind of supporting cast these kids have. Are they that undisciplined to attend class? Do they not want the responsibility of attending a prestigous university? If the answer to either of those are yes then they have no chance of being successful in the NHL either. If anything being a collegiate hockey player prepares you more for life in the NHL and teaches you balance. The OHL may prepare you for the hockey aspect but, IMO, doesn't teach you all you need. You may play more games in major junior but all it does is teach you about hockey. The OHL could care less about your life skills, they would tell you otherwise but proof is in the pudding, but the college game teaches you life skills, gives you a broader education, as well as teaches you hockey and playes against great competition.

I know I am saying a lot that everyone already knows, yet it still happens. Makes you scratch your head as to who these kids have around them and the ego's some of them have.

[redeagle]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

rhm at College Hockey, Inc.? Oh boy.

It could have been the Swami's thread, but somewhere recently I read about the compensation in the OHL (or maybe more broadly in the CHL). rhm, I don't think those big numbers are considered "contracts" (maybe they are), but I got the impression they were more like off the books/under the table payments, and they go only to the elite players. I am sure someone on here will know how it works and approximately what the numbers are.

[Jeff_Jackson_for_Pres.]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

rhm at College Hockey, Inc.? Oh boy.

You just really wonder what kind of supporting cast these kids have. Are they that undisciplined to attend class? Do they not want the responsibility of attending a prestigous university? If the answer to either of those are yes then they have no chance of being successful in the NHL either. If anything being a collegiate hockey player prepares you more for life in the NHL and teaches you balance. The OHL may prepare you for the hockey aspect but, IMO, doesn't teach you all you need. You may play more games in major junior but all it does is teach you about hockey. The OHL could care less about your life skills, they would tell you otherwise but proof is in the pudding, but the college game teaches you life skills, gives you a broader education, as well as teaches you hockey and playes against great competition.

I rest my case.

You sure about that? I have never seen nor heard of contracts like that in the OHL, that seems like an absurd number.

Ask Coach Jackson about that. *wonders how that defamation lawsuit brought by the OHL against him is going...*

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

I rest my case.



Ask Coach Jackson about that. *wonders how that defamation lawsuit brought by the OHL against him is going...*

When you think about it, and it may not be the case but just how it seems, a lot of these guys who do this come from the USNTDP. USA hockey needs to do a better job of keeping these guys at home and honoring their committment. They should be able to make it part of the players committment to the development program. Especially since education plays a key role in their development program. Also should be a way to disqualify guys who jump to the OHL from playing at the World Juniors. ( Won't happen just thinking outside the box ). Just think that the USNTDP should do a better job at mandating that somehow they go to college.

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

rhm at College Hockey, Inc.? Oh boy.

It could have been the Swami's thread, but somewhere recently I read about the compensation in the OHL (or maybe more broadly in the CHL). rhm, I don't think those big numbers are considered "contracts" (maybe they are), but I got the impression they were more like off the books/under the table payments, and they go only to the elite players. I am sure someone on here will know how it works and approximately what the numbers are.

Don't worry I would still keep you involved as my advisor...

[Arpod]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

When you think about it, and it may not be the case but just how it seems, a lot of these guys who do this come from the USNTDP. USA hockey needs to do a better job of keeping these guys at home and honoring their committment. They should be able to make it part of the players committment to the development program. Especially since education plays a key role in their development program. Also should be a way to disqualify guys who jump to the OHL from playing at the World Juniors. ( Won't happen just thinking outside the box ). Just think that the USNTDP should do a better job at mandating that somehow they go to college.

Having watched the USNTDP up close for a decade, I believe the reason players from the program forego college completely for the CHL (Ryan Borque, Beau Schmitz, Emmerson Etem, Jimmy Sharrow, Peter Muller etc.), de-commit before matriculating (Tinordi, Fowler, Campbell, A Czarnik [maybe?] etc.) or leave after one or two years for the CHL (Robbie Czarnik, Adam Pineault the list is long) is either:

1) They never have been held accountable to perform up to academic standards that will translate to success (or even adequacy) at the college level, and they either know it up front or figure it out quickly once they get to college

or

2) The company they keep has convinced them that they are 'golden, a lock for the show, the greatest ever, $hiza don't stink, can do no wrong and your talent would be wasted in college, CHL is the quickest path to the show...'

There is also the 'do something incredibly selfish/stupid/felonious and have to leave' situation (another unfortunately long list that includes JJfP's favorite ex-Irish forward... )

The thing is, these reasons also apply to non-NTDP kids of the same caliber/talent, though we do not necessarily hear about it as often because they are generally not in the limelight quite as much as the USA kids. With respect to the goals of the program, don't kid yourself: it is there to develop hockey players, and the end game is to put teams on the ice that win in international competition. Period. Education outside of hockey-related concepts (training, strategy, skills enhancement, etc.) is not a point of emphasis. While your suggestions make sense from a 'develop the whole player and support US hockey development all the way through the college game' point of view, the reality is it is all about winning and, at the individual player level, making $$$$ (and family advisors will ALWAYS push the elite players to go the CHL route 'cause that is where they say the $$$$ starts...).

[Twisted Wrister]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Just think that the USNTDP should do a better job at mandating that somehow they go to college.

I would think the NHL would be open to guys staying in school for two or three years. I don't know how the USNTDP would go about enforcing a mandate. I just don't see the OHL ever agreeing to anything along those lines.

[pinch]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

They should be able to make it part of the players committment to the development program. Especially since education plays a key role in their development program. Also should be a way to disqualify guys who jump to the OHL from playing at the World Juniors. ( Won't happen just thinking outside the box ). Just think that the USNTDP should do a better job at mandating that somehow they go to college.

It is not USA Hockey's job.....and what do you mean by "Especially since education plays a key role in their development program"....that they go to HS?

[redeagle]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Arpod, that's interesting about academics and the NTDP. I know you are not generalizing about all NTDP kids and Miami has not had a lot of program kids (until recently), but the ones they have gotten stayed four years and presumably graduated. Some were outstanding students (Mercier, for example). It may be the type of kid Miam recruits in general and from the NTDP (Mercier, Davis, Pomaranski, Hustead, Vaive (off the top of my head), but they have been four year types and graduated. Vaive, obviously, will be a senior this year. Also, things may be changing, so it will be interesting to see if that holds up in the future.

[Jeff_Jackson_for_Pres.]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

.....and what do you mean by "Especially since education plays a key role in their development program"....

I may be wrong, but I took it to mean creating a well-rounded, knows how to time manage, exposed to new concepts, short term/long term goal setting kinda development. The skills that college hones.

[redeagle]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

This, and the CHL vs. NCAA debate, got me thinking about the percentage of NCAA players who graduate and also play in the NHL. My argument has always been you can play college hockey, get an education (often at a great school), have the college "experience" (often overlooked), form life-long bonds on *and* off the ice, graduate, and still play in the NHL. And that is the culture Miami has built. If you look at the players who played in the NHL since, say, 2000 from Miami, here is what you find, at least from my recollection:

Ryan Jones, stayed four years, graduated
Dan Boyle, stayed four years, graduated
Andy Greene, stayed four years, graduated
Kevyn Adams, stayed four years, graduated
Randy Robitaille, left after two years, did not graduate
Todd Rohloff, stayed four years, graduated
Mike Glumac, stayed four years, graduated
Pat Leahy, stayed four years, graduated
Justin Mercier, stayed four years, graduated
Alec Martinez, stayed three years, high gpa, but has not yet finished (probably will)

That's eight out of the ten Miami NHLers since 2000 who graduated and one more who probably will to make it nine out of ten (sometime soon, I hope). Some of those guys do not have a lot of NHL time yet (Mercier, Martinez) and a couple did not have much time in the show (Rohloff, Glumac) making their degrees all the more important, IMO.

It's true that Miami has not had a lot of high picks, which helps (only Adams was a first-rounder) and that some of the most successful Miami grads were undrafted (Boyle, Greene).

I don't know what the percentages are at other schools and I also know the times are changing, but clearly Miami has shown you can have both the degree and the NHL.

For Miami fans, if you go back to Al Chevrier (graduated) Rich Shulmistra (graduated), and Brian Savage (did not graduate) the picture does not change a lot. I can't remember off the top of my head who else played in the NHL from the "old days."

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Having watched the USNTDP up close for a decade, I believe the reason players from the program forego college completely for the CHL (Ryan Borque, Beau Schmitz, Emmerson Etem, Jimmy Sharrow, Peter Muller etc.), de-commit before matriculating (Tinordi, Fowler, Campbell, A Czarnik [maybe?] etc.) or leave after one or two years for the CHL (Robbie Czarnik, Adam Pineault the list is long) is either:

1) They never have been held accountable to perform up to academic standards that will translate to success (or even adequacy) at the college level, and they either know it up front or figure it out quickly once they get to college

or

2) The company they keep has convinced them that they are 'golden, a lock for the show, the greatest ever, $hiza don't stink, can do no wrong and your talent would be wasted in college, CHL is the quickest path to the show...'

There is also the 'do something incredibly selfish/stupid/felonious and have to leave' situation (another unfortunately long list that includes JJfP's favorite ex-Irish forward... )

The thing is, these reasons also apply to non-NTDP kids of the same caliber/talent, though we do not necessarily hear about it as often because they are generally not in the limelight quite as much as the USA kids. With respect to the goals of the program, don't kid yourself: it is there to develop hockey players, and the end game is to put teams on the ice that win in international competition. Period. Education outside of hockey-related concepts (training, strategy, skills enhancement, etc.) is not a point of emphasis. While your suggestions make sense from a 'develop the whole player and support US hockey development all the way through the college game' point of view, the reality is it is all about winning and, at the individual player level, making $$$$ (and family advisors will ALWAYS push the elite players to go the CHL route 'cause that is where they say the $$$$ starts...).

Good stuff.

I may be wrong but the kids in the USNTDP have to maintain certain academic standards since they are all high school kids. However the logic that the OHL is the fast track to the NHL has been proven mute. There have been plenty of guys come to college for a year or two or three and immediately gone to the NHL. And you are correct it does apply to the non USNTDP kids but those kids are considered the cream of the crop and are more high profile. Trust me I am not kidding myself with the end goal of the overall program. And while USA hockey and the NCAA are two seperate bodies you would think they would want the best for each kid as a whole. Maybe this will change with Danton Cole being apart of the program and knowing what the college game has to offer. I am not nieve but if USA hockey is going to have a high profile program like this they should do a better job of 1. preparing these kids to be successfull on and off the ice and 2. giving them the proper guidance about all parties involved.

I would think the NHL would be open to guys staying in school for two or three years. I don't know how the USNTDP would go about enforcing a mandate. I just don't see the OHL ever agreeing to anything along those lines.

Why would the OHL even be involved in that? They are their own seperate entity and really wouldn't have a say in anything the NCAA and NHL worked out.

It is not USA Hockey's job.....and what do you mean by "Especially since education plays a key role in their development program"....that they go to HS?

Read above.

[redhawkman10]

Re: Ccha 2010-2011

Guys from the 2009-2010 Media guide of the USNTDP:

In 1996, USA Hockey launched a revolutionary new initiative called the National Team
Development Program, based in Ann Arbor, Mich. Entering its 13th season of play in
2009-10, the goal of this full-time development program is to prepare student-athletesunder the age of 18 for participation on U.S. National Teams and success in their future
hockey careers. Its efforts focus not only on high-caliber participation on the ice, but
creating well-rounded individuals off the ice.The program is composed of two squads - the U.S. National Under-18 and Under-17
Teams. The Under-17 Team competes in the United States Hockey League and also
participates in three international events annually. The U.S. National Under-18 Team’s
schedule includes games against NCAA Division I and III opponents, contests vs. USHL
teams, as well as competition in three international tournaments.

I highlighted two key points that make my argument on the "mission" of the program. However they are not following through with that with so many of their gradutes skipping college for the OHL. They even have an academic mentor, so academics seem to be a big part of the program as well.