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Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

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  • LynahFan
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by Nevergoodenough View Post
    I have actually been involved with a couple of Title IX fights (for the female side...) and your statement is absolutely correct.

    I want to give an example of my earlier statement regarding men picking up the check. I know of several D1 Women's Hockey programs, in hockey hot-beds, that struggle to get 300 fans to a game, yet will sell out 6,000 for a Men's game. And we're talking prime time-slots for both. The same for high school, few will attend the girl's/women's games for whatever reason. Who generates the revenue to keep the female population playing? One guess... However, everything from uniforms, locker rooms and transportation has to be, not only equal but in some instances better than the men/boys receive.

    Let them all play, but don't expect one side to support the other side financially for ever. Help them get started, but then let them swim or sink.
    Your last paragraph got me thinking: what if the regulations changed to say that the money supplied by the school to fund athletics had to be equal, rather than the overall budgets?

    For example: Say the football and men's basketball teams bring in $15M per year, and only cost $12M to operate. If the total athletic budget is $20M, then the school is kicking in $5M, so the school would be required to spend at least $2.5M on women's teams (half of the amount the school is paying for). Therefore, the athletic department could spend $17.5M on men's teams and $2.5M on women's and be in compliance.

    This scheme recognizes that it is clearly not the case that Federal money is paying for football and basketball, since they pay for themselves. Of the Federal money that goes to the school, the portion that gets sent "over the wall" to the athletics department is being spent in equal proportions on Men's and Women's teams - $2.5M each, in this case.

    If that's too radical, you could pare it back so that only the budgets of profitable sports are exempt, so in my example, the $12M budgets of football and basketball would be exempt, leaving $8M, so the school would be required to spend at least $4M on women's sports.

    For schools that DON'T make money on their football teams - well, they can still pump in money to prop them up, but they have to match that spending dollar for dollar on women's teams.

    The more I think about this, the more fair it seems - it is completely logical that the Federal government should be allowed to attach strings to the money it gives to educational institutions. But why should the government get to dictate how the university spends the revenue it generates from its sports teams? Put it another way: it's (somewhat) logical that if the government gives a school $10M to build a new science lab, and the school gives its athletic department $10M that year, then you can easily make the argument that the government's grant freed up the $10M in the school's budget, which it chose to spend on sports - in that sense, the $10M going to the athletic department could be seen as the government's (people's) money. Therefore, the sports that those $10M go to support should be proportional for men and women.

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  • HoosierBBall_GopherHockey
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    Sorry you evidently missed the fact that Bush hasn't been president now for going on two years. So the question becomes: when does the hopemeister actually become responsible for his own actions or lack thereof? When will it become possible to comment on Obama misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance without referencing Bush?

    I'll defer to your obviously greater understanding of what "outright stupid" is. But it's really a little boring that on matters great and small, Obamnics find it necessary to rush to the barricades to defend their guy by pointing out that Bush was worse or Bush did it, too or whatever. Of course with approval ratings in the 40's and no immediate prospect for improvement, it's important to keep waving the bloody shirt of the previous administration. However, the public seems to be getting wise.

    The reason why Dick Durbin and the president and virtually that entire top heavy majority in both houses wouldn't even consider changing Title IX (even in the absence of any other concerns) is the hurricane of opposition that would generate among their Code Pink and Emily's List (et al) admirers.

    And while I'm not altogether certain you can simplfy your posts any more than they already are, you keep trying, hear?
    Good God dude. I merely referenced Bush because he was the last President. I would have been worried if he decided to start delving into Title IX when there were a lot more important things to worry about.

    I am not here to talk politics with you. They have no place in this conversation.

    Outright stupid means blatantly stupid or inexcusably stupid. I guess I could have used those terms instead.

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  • blockski
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    "Profits on the back of scholarship labor?" What are you, an organizer for the IWW?
    Apparently I did a fly-by.

    My hypothesis is simple - Title IX is not nearly as big of an issue (regarding reduced men's sports) for Division 3 as it is in Division 1 because of the money.

    I ask that as a question to some degree - I'd love for people with more experience in D3 athletics to come tell me I'm wrong if that's the case.

    I think the only model the Dutch can offer us is increased yield per acre for tulips. D-III? Surely you jest. As to soccer. A nice game but not, IMHO, a template for college athletics in this country. Based on your conclusions and choice of language, you aren't a fan of big time college sports. No doubt, lots of problems, but Dutch soccer isn't going to show us a way forewared here. Besides, Title IX presumably exists to eliminate gender inequities--to ensure equal opportunities for women, whether they want them or not, not to restore some DeCoubertin model of "amateurism" which has been long gone for decades. You can always screen "Chariots of Fire" if you're feeling nostalgic.
    First, I like college sports just fine - in fact, I love attending games for basketball, football, hockey, etc. However, I recognize those revenue sports for what they are - semi-professional athletics. That's why I bring up D3, which is certainly the NCAA (and the Department of Education's) idea of what amateur college sports should be.

    Again, my hypothesis is that in the context of Division 3 athletics, Title IX is much less of a problem. In Division 1, it's a huge problem, but that's basically because you're trying to shoehorn that requirement on a semi-professional athletic league.

    That's why I brought up the European soccer academies - they are cold-blooded professionals looking to develop talent to the benefit of the club. I'd suggest taking a deeper look at the article (it's long, I know), because I think it offers a lot of good lessons about how our college sports system falls short of actually developing professional talent. I'm not suggesting that's a model for college athletics at all - quite the opposite, in fact - it's a model for professional athletics. It's something that MLS has learned with soccer - that they can develop better talent through their own academies than they can via college scholarships. We obviously see that play out with hockey all the time with the development tracks for college vs major junior (also essentially a semi-professional system but without the NCAA's whitewashing). It's a worthy contrast to look at.

    The point is this - enforcing gender equality doesn't apply to professional sports. The inherent tension within big time college athletics is between the ideal of the student athlete and amateur athletics and the pull of semi-professional revenue sports aimed at developing talent for the professional leagues. Your average D-1 athletic department has to deal with both of those aspects, but must conform under one law.

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  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by HoosierBBall_GopherHockey View Post
    No, you missed the point of my post. Both parties are failing to do anything in the way of changing Title IX, not just Democrats, and that's fine. I think they have bigger issues to currently deal with. To name Barack Obama and Dick Durbin in this is laughable at best, outright stupid at worst (leans towards the latter). I was joking about Bush, thus the . Sorry you missed it. I'll make sure to put a few more next time.
    Sorry you evidently missed the fact that Bush hasn't been president now for going on two years. So the question becomes: when does the hopemeister actually become responsible for his own actions or lack thereof? When will it become possible to comment on Obama misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance without referencing Bush?

    I'll defer to your obviously greater understanding of what "outright stupid" is. But it's really a little boring that on matters great and small, Obamnics find it necessary to rush to the barricades to defend their guy by pointing out that Bush was worse or Bush did it, too or whatever. Of course with approval ratings in the 40's and no immediate prospect for improvement, it's important to keep waving the bloody shirt of the previous administration. However, the public seems to be getting wise.

    The reason why Dick Durbin and the president and virtually that entire top heavy majority in both houses wouldn't even consider changing Title IX (even in the absence of any other concerns) is the hurricane of opposition that would generate among their Code Pink and Emily's List (et al) admirers.

    And while I'm not altogether certain you can simplfy your posts any more than they already are, you keep trying, hear?
    Last edited by Old Pio; 06-22-2010, 05:31 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • HoosierBBall_GopherHockey
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    Of course: "It's Bush's fault," or "Bush was just as bad." Couple of all purpose moral equivalency arguments. Beats thinking, for sure.
    No, you missed the point of my post. Both parties are failing to do anything in the way of changing Title IX, not just Democrats, and that's fine. I think they have bigger issues to currently deal with. To name Barack Obama and Dick Durbin in this is laughable at best, outright stupid at worst (leans towards the latter). I was joking about Bush, thus the . Sorry you missed it. I'll make sure to put a few more next time.
    Last edited by HoosierBBall_GopherHockey; 06-22-2010, 01:26 AM. Reason: grammar

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  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by blockski View Post
    While it certainly has had unintended consequences, it's also exposed the farce of college athletics as an amateur exercise. The biggest inequity is football, which is a big moneymaking sport that profits on the backs of scholarship labor.

    I'm asking this as an honest question, because so much of the Title IX discussion centers around big time college athletics - has the impact been any different at, say, the D-3 level?

    As I've become more and more of a soccer fan, I've also seen more and more of the benefits for soccer of de-coupling player development from the education track (which is far more common everywhere else in the world except for the US). I think hockey has probably the best overall system - a hybrid with US college hockey and Canadian Junior hockey, as opposed to the pure professional development of European soccer.

    Anyway, it's become more and more clear to me that D3 is the ideal situation that the NCAA appeals to, and that D1 athletics in many sports has been subverted as a means of professional development.

    The New York Times had a great (and long) article on the development of youth soccer talent in Holland, and it had some interesting comments on the American system of using colleges to develop talent. That system might work better for, say, football due to the physical maturity required to play the pro game. That same thing more or less applies for hockey, where it's rare that kids of HS age can play with the elite pros. Basketball is more of a gray area, and soccer has shown that teenagers can and often do play with the professionals and play well.

    So, haven't really thought this through, but my thought is that the biggest problem with Title IX is that it aims to correct inequities - and those inequities are systemic, thanks to the system we've relied on that uses college athletics as a professional development track.

    Thoughts?
    "Profits on the back of scholarship labor?" What are you, an organizer for the IWW?
    I think the only model the Dutch can offer us is increased yield per acre for tulips. D-III? Surely you jest. As to soccer. A nice game but not, IMHO, a template for college athletics in this country. Based on your conclusions and choice of language, you aren't a fan of big time college sports. No doubt, lots of problems, but Dutch soccer isn't going to show us a way forward here. Besides, Title IX presumably exists to eliminate gender inequities--to ensure equal opportunities for women, whether they want them or not, not to restore some DeCoubertin model of "amateurism" which has been long gone for decades. You can always screen "Chariots of Fire" if you're feeling nostalgic.
    Last edited by Old Pio; 06-24-2010, 08:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by HoosierBBall_GopherHockey View Post
    I did notice that Bush was certainly working hard at trying to modify it during his time in office.
    Of course: "It's Bush's fault," or "Bush was just as bad." Couple of all purpose moral equivalency arguments. Beats thinking, for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nevergoodenough
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
    I don't know the html tag to cross out your quote, but consider it fixed:

    "The problem isn't really with Title IX as much as it's with the way the Department of Education has chosen to interpret and enforce it, which has effectively turned it into a strict quota system."
    I have actually been involved with a couple of Title IX fights (for the female side...) and your statement is absolutely correct.

    I want to give an example of my earlier statement regarding men picking up the check. I know of several D1 Women's Hockey programs, in hockey hot-beds, that struggle to get 300 fans to a game, yet will sell out 6,000 for a Men's game. And we're talking prime time-slots for both. The same for high school, few will attend the girl's/women's games for whatever reason. Who generates the revenue to keep the female population playing? One guess... However, everything from uniforms, locker rooms and transportation has to be, not only equal but in some instances better than the men/boys receive.

    Let them all play, but don't expect one side to support the other side financially for ever. Help them get started, but then let them swim or sink.

    Leave a comment:


  • blockski
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    On the college level, Title IX is a textbook example of "The Law of Unintended Consequences." It has provided additional athletic opportunities for the ladies, which we all support. But in far too many instances at the cost of athletic opportunities for men. Tennis, gymnastics and wrestling are just three sports devastated because of Title IX at colleges and universities from coast to coast. Do we really want that?
    While it certainly has had unintended consequences, it's also exposed the farce of college athletics as an amateur exercise. The biggest inequity is football, which is a big moneymaking sport that profits on the backs of scholarship labor.

    I'm asking this as an honest question, because so much of the Title IX discussion centers around big time college athletics - has the impact been any different at, say, the D-3 level?

    As I've become more and more of a soccer fan, I've also seen more and more of the benefits for soccer of de-coupling player development from the education track (which is far more common everywhere else in the world except for the US). I think hockey has probably the best overall system - a hybrid with US college hockey and Canadian Junior hockey, as opposed to the pure professional development of European soccer.

    Anyway, it's become more and more clear to me that D3 is the ideal situation that the NCAA appeals to, and that D1 athletics in many sports has been subverted as a means of professional development.

    The New York Times had a great (and long) article on the development of youth soccer talent in Holland, and it had some interesting comments on the American system of using colleges to develop talent. That system might work better for, say, football due to the physical maturity required to play the pro game. That same thing more or less applies for hockey, where it's rare that kids of HS age can play with the elite pros. Basketball is more of a gray area, and soccer has shown that teenagers can and often do play with the professionals and play well.

    So, haven't really thought this through, but my thought is that the biggest problem with Title IX is that it aims to correct inequities - and those inequities are systemic, thanks to the system we've relied on that uses college athletics as a professional development track.

    Thoughts?

    Leave a comment:


  • BoomGoestheDynamite
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    I'm rather confused about the women's/men's (girls/boys) scheduling controversy. When I was in High School the Friday night games simply rotated venues. If we were playing say Foothill High School that night, the men would play at home and the women away. Sometime later in the season for the return leg the venues would be switched. Seemed simple enough to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • LynahFan
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by MinnesotaNorthStar View Post
    Can we agree that politicians (on both sides of the aisle) have more important things to worry about than Title IX?

    The problem isn't really with Title IX as much as it's with the way athletic departments have chosen to deal with it.
    I don't know the html tag to cross out your quote, but consider it fixed:

    "The problem isn't really with Title IX as much as it's with the way the Department of Education has chosen to interpret and enforce it, which has effectively turned it into a strict quota system."

    Leave a comment:


  • HoosierBBall_GopherHockey
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by MinnesotaNorthStar View Post
    Can we agree that politicians (on both sides of the aisle) have more important things to worry about than Title IX?

    The problem isn't really with Title IX as much as it's with the way athletic departments have chosen to deal with it.
    Sounds fine with me. I was being facetious. Obama (and Bush, or any other President) have way more important things on their plates than Title IX.

    Leave a comment:


  • MinnesotaNorthStar
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Can we agree that politicians (on both sides of the aisle) have more important things to worry about than Title IX?

    The problem isn't really with Title IX as much as it's with the way athletic departments have chosen to deal with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • HoosierBBall_GopherHockey
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    Me? Oversimplify? I would guess at the vast majority of high schools the AD's do their best to give everybody a shot at the prime time slots. The problem is with the types for whom the only goal is absolute equality at all times and under all circumstances. Although they're a tiny loud- mouthed minority, UND among others, has learned that lack of actual support is no barrier for PC types.

    Apart from modifying Title IX, which the Barack Obamas and Dick Durbins of the world would never countenance, the answer is money, which is in short supply for most college athletic departments. There is also what I call the "DU solution," which involves having a majority of your sports co-educational.

    When you hear Title IX Nazis talking about "why do we need so many scholarships for football," you realize you're dealing with people who have no interest in fairness for men and no understanding of which sport draws 50 to 100,000 paying customers to campus several times a year. They remind me of Hitler, in the bunker, waiting for General Wenck to come relieve the siege of Berlin--out of touch with reality.
    I did notice that Bush was certainly working hard at trying to modify it during his time in office.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Should Title IX be modified or stay in it's present form?

    Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
    Actually, I was referring to the "slopping the pigs" part of your post.

    Is a 6pm/5pm/whatever start ideal for men's sports? Probably not. But it's not such an inconvenience to most of the fans of said sports to skip it altogether. Think of it like TV. You have a weak lead-in show to try and hook the fans of the main show, or have the weak after-show to try and retain the viewers from the main show. It might work in sports, it might not.

    The worst that can happen? The sports world remains status quo, for the most part. The best? Women's sports grow, and maybe a couple men's sports won't be cut.
    When you use the term "men's" and "women's" I assume you're referring to college sports. In the "slopping the hogs" analogy I was talking about high school sports and referring to at least one lawsuit I'm familiar with filed in Iowa. That's where the scheduling battles are taking place, not so much in college.

    There will be no going back or compromising on Title IX on the college level. "They" run the show and call the shots and "they" have no incentive to give an inch.

    Leave a comment:

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