Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

[GoBucky36]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Im happy with college hockey just as it is. IMO, it doesnt, "need" to grow or change.
However, if more schools would like to get involved in hockey and have a demand for it (students who are good hockey players and want to play) and the money to build quality rinks and support hockey programs, Im all for it.
We're already seeing warm-weather schoools getting involved in hockey (the SEC is one example that comes to mind) and I think you will see college hockey grow in the coming years.
The only concern I would have is there being so many college hockey programs that the talent is really diluted to the point where the quality of the game suffers.
I dont think it would be very interesting to watch a game where each team only has 1 or 2 really good players and the rest are average at best.

[komey1]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

One "problem" with growth is that if more football and basketball powers play, they have the potential to get good fast. Many of the current hockey powers like Miami, North Dakota, and Denver will not win a national title in any other major sport. (Ok - maybe not NEVER, but highly unlikely).

It would not happen overnight, but if a Tennesee or a Kentucky or a Syracuse started a program, with the resources they have, they could get pretty competitive in a few years.

[bronconick]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

It's painfully obvious that LynahFan hasn't the foggiest idea of what an SAT score of 400 indicates: the tested individual did not answer a single question correctly.

An SAT score of "400" translates to a ZERO, zip, zilch, rien, nada, bupkiss. A 400 indicates that someone signed his/her name or made his/her mark, or someone did it for them - nothing more.

It's similary apparent that LynahFan and his ilk ignore irate parents and citizens who are concerned about the level of K-12 education in America today. If colleges approve of, recruit, and award scholarships to students with qualifying test scores of ZERO what does a 3.5 high school GPA signify?

Attitudes toward and practices of the NCAA and too many college athletic programs, including some hockey programs and hockey fans, are hostile toward education. For proof, see above; one of many defending ZERO test scores.

If you have the curiosity and the courage to learn what is actually going on
between academics and college sports (including hockey) please read the article cited below:

http://espn.go.com/columns/farrey_tom/1453693.html

Why the hell would a kid scoring 400 go to college when he can play hockey in Major Juniors and not go to class

Not only do you not know college hockey, you don't even understand the path to professional hockey as it currently stands in North America.

Don't buy next year's NHL hockey video game. I don't want you polluting some board asking where these "OHL and WHL" teams came from.

[Osorojo]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

"The 400 rule is for basketball and football, pure and simple. Those are the sports where 99.9% of athletes have to get into college to get to the pros, so that necessarily includes the dumbest ones, too. In hockey, there is a thriving alternative to college that has an even better track record than the NCAA for putting players in the NHL. Why would anyone who struggles to get a 500 SAT even WANT to play college hockey?

"This is so NOT a problem for college hockey."

The 400 rule applies equally to college hockey, pure and simple. Anyone who struggles to obtain a higher than 400 (ZERO) on an SAT is probably naive enough to be tempted by offers of free tuition, college life, athletic glory and a trip to the pros in a couple of years or less. Anyone who is naive enough to believe college hockey will shun recruiting academic washouts probably did not attain an SAT of much over zero (400).

You are absolutely correct to declare this is not a problem for college hockey, and you absolutely do not understand my argument. This is a problem for academics and academic standards, not for college hockey. However, the NCAA "zero rule" permits college hockey programs to recruit
and subsidize players who would previously have gone to major juniors, hastening the day when college and junior hockey will be the same academically as well as athletically. Now that the obstacle of academic expectations has been removed perhaps college and junior hockey will merge, as was previously suggested.

BTW: All too commonly high schools award passing grades and diplomas to illiterate students. That's the heart of all the fuss about public education: the
3.5 grade point average in high school which conveys the same assurance of academic achievement as an SAT score of 400.

[4four4]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

The only concern I would have is there being so many college hockey programs that the talent is really diluted to the point where the quality of the game suffers.
I dont think it would be very interesting to watch a game where each team only has 1 or 2 really good players and the rest are average at best.

I disagree currently the state of Minnesota alone has more then enough talent to start up two more college hockey programs. IMO, the overall quality of Minnesota players is at its best like never before.

[4four4]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Why the hell would a kid scoring 400 go to college when he can play hockey in Major Juniors and not go to class.

Thats what I was thinking.

[komey1]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

The 400 rule applies equally to college hockey, pure and simple. Anyone who struggles to obtain a higher than 400 (ZERO) on an SAT is probably naive enough to be tempted by offers of free tuition, college life, athletic glory and a trip to the pros in a couple of years or less. Anyone who is naive enough to believe college hockey will shun recruiting academic washouts probably did not attain an SAT of much over zero (400).

I disagree. Major juniors affords more games. And they would not need to go to class. A trip to the pros is just as quick with Major Juniors, if not quicker than with the NCAA.

You are absolutely correct to declare this is not a problem for college hockey, and you absolutely do not understand my argument. This is a problem for academics and academic standards, not for college hockey. However, the NCAA "zero rule" permits college hockey programs to recruit
and subsidize players who would previously have gone to major juniors, hastening the day when college and junior hockey will be the same academically as well as athletically. Now that the obstacle of academic expectations has been removed perhaps college and junior hockey will merge, as was previously suggested.

Who suggested that college hockey and junior hockey will merge? I would be surprised if that happened. And since you have stated (admitted) this was not a problem for college hockey, why do you keep repeating your arguement. You have not added anything new. No examples. No trends. Is this something that is REALLY happening, or are you raising the concern for a problem that currently does not exist.

BTW: All too commonly high schools award passing grades and diplomas to illiterate students. That's the heart of all the fuss about public education: the
3.5 grade point average in high school which conveys the same assurance of academic achievement as an SAT score of 400.

Passing grades are one thing - 3.5 is a whole lot of A's and B's. I would be surprised of those are just given away. Anyway, there is a place called "The Cafe" on these boards for this discussion. Feel free to post about this there.

[LtPowers]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Yo, isn't there another thread for this stuff? I thought this thread was about growing College Hockey.


Powers &8^]

[komey1]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Yo, isn't there another thread for this stuff? I thought this thread was about growing College Hockey.


Powers &8^]

Yes there is. Thread hijacking is prevelant here AND in the other thread.

[jcarter7669]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Well in all fairness I think Osrojojojojo was trying to make the point that if college grows it will be more susceptible to cheating, corruption, etc.

That said, his explanation skills are lacking, and since he is a self proclaimed educator I present that low GSR and low SAT scores are a problem because of OSrororojojoj and once he retires (goes away) all will be right in the world.

[Osorojo]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

"I disagree. Major juniors affords more games. And they would not need to go to class. A trip to the pros is just as quick with Major Juniors, if not quicker than with the NCAA."

What makes you think that college hockey recruits with entrance examination scores of ZERO would or would wish to go to class, where they would encounter only confusion and humiliation? The co-eds, however, . . .


"Who suggested that college hockey and junior hockey will merge?"

I did.

"Is this something that is REALLY happening, or are you raising the concern for a problem that currently does not exist."

I would like you to at least accept the facts, examine them, and try to reach a reasonable conclusion. Please do not depend upon my conclusions or your prejudices alone.

"Passing grades are one thing - 3.5 is a whole lot of A's and B's. I would be surprised of those are just given away. Anyway, there is a place called "The Cafe" on these boards for this discussion. Feel free to post about this
there."

The future of our country is largely dependent upon the education of our youth, which in turn depends upon the educational standards our youth is expected to achieve. Neither you, nor I, nor the NCAA, nor college hockey, is excused from the responsibility of insisting upon legitimate educational standards (not zeros on examinations), especially for students enrolled in higher education. If a non-athlete with an SAT of 400 (ZERO) has no chance of admission to or a scholarship from a reputable college or university why in hell should an athlete? Are hockey players atheletes?

If your priority is developing better hockey players I'm on your side. It's a magnificent game. If you are willing to sacrifice educational expectations, even for a select few, for a winning hockey team what good are you or your opinions?

[PLEASE don't claim college hockey programs will not take advantage of the NCAA's 00.00% qualifying test score to admit academically doomed "college"
hockey prospects. You would reveal yourself as a simpleton or a liar.]

[TimU]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

If a non-athlete with an SAT of 400 (ZERO) has no chance of admission to or a scholarship from a reputable college or university why in hell should an athlete?

Guess what? The NCAA has NEVER, EVER imposed any minimum standards for non-athletes. It's ALWAYS been "zero" for them - and schools don't even have to look for those sham 3.5 HS GPAs. So that must mean that until recently athletes have been the only people enrolled at American colleges and universities who exhibited any academic preparation or qualifications whatsoever.

[jcarter7669]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

The future of our country is largely dependent upon the education of our youth, which in turn depends upon the educational standards our youth is expected to achieve. Neither you, nor I, nor the NCAA, nor college hockey, is excused from the responsibility of insisting upon legitimate educational standards (not zeros on examinations), especially for students enrolled in higher education. If a non-athlete with an SAT of 400 (ZERO) has no chance of admission to or a scholarship from a reputable college or university why in hell should an athlete? Are hockey players atheletes?

If your priority is developing better hockey players I'm on your side. It's a magnificent game. If you are willing to sacrifice educational expectations, even for a select few, for a winning hockey team what good are you or your opinions?

[PLEASE don't claim college hockey programs will not take advantage of the NCAA's 00.00% qualifying test score to admit academically doomed "college"
hockey prospects. You would reveal yourself as a simpleton or a liar.]

Why don't you start doing some research and post the avg SAT scores for college hockey players and the avg, GPA for college hockey players. Then do this for the past 20 years and we can all see the actual facts. Have fun.

[komey1]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

The future of our country is largely dependent upon the education of our youth, which in turn depends upon the educational standards our youth is expected to achieve. Neither you, nor I, nor the NCAA, nor college hockey, is excused from the responsibility of insisting upon legitimate educational standards (not zeros on examinations), especially for students enrolled in higher education. If a non-athlete with an SAT of 400 (ZERO) has no chance of admission to or a scholarship from a reputable college or university why in hell should an athlete? Are hockey players atheletes?

Only minor relevance. The standards put forth are what they are. I would argue someone who puts up a 3.5 GPA or better has shown that they can do the work. And if they show that they can't, most if not all colleges will suspend the student. How often during the college bowl season do you hear about athletes not making the grade. You hear quite a bit. Hence, they don't play. That does nobody any good.

If your priority is developing better hockey players I'm on your side. It's a magnificent game. If you are willing to sacrifice educational expectations, even for a select few, for a winning hockey team what good are you or your opinions?

[PLEASE don't claim college hockey programs will not take advantage of the NCAA's 00.00% qualifying test score to admit academically doomed "college"
hockey prospects. You would reveal yourself as a simpleton or a liar.]

Show me one that does. At what point is the college or universities responsibility to make sure the student is academically eligible? You show me a high school kid who gets a 3.5 GPA and I would bet he could do college work. Once he is admitted, I will contend that the university's responsibility.

I will say I don't believe college hockey programs would take advantage because anyone that is playing hockey with that kind of issue and has aspirations of going pro will be playing Major Juniors. If what you are saying is that college hockey programs COULD, I would agree. But again, can you show any stats that back up claims that college hockey programs ARE?

[Osorojo]

Re: Should College Hockey grow? Does it need change?

Guess what? The NCAA has NEVER, EVER imposed any minimum standards for non-athletes. It's ALWAYS been "zero" for them - and schools don't even have to look for those sham 3.5 HS GPAs. So that must mean that until recently athletes have been the only people enrolled at American colleges and universities who exhibited any academic preparation or qualifications whatsoever.

Tim:

Please look at what you wrote and think about it. You declare that colleges and universities - all of them - have no minimum academic standards for admission of non-athletes. Are you sure of this? How about the rest of your argument?

I have searched at length and in vain for entrance qualifications and academic records of college hockey scholarship recipients in the most successful (championship) Division I teams: Michigan, Denver, North Dakota, Wisconsin, B.U., Minnesota, B.C., Michigan State, Lake Superior State, Michigan Tech. No athlete's names are necessary, only anonymous admissions and academic records, but I can't find any for specific colleges. Generalities won't work here. I don't claim that all colleges suspend academic standards for hockey players, I only suspect that some do, and most likely for scholarship holders.

You can destroy my unfounded suspicions by providing URL's which publish acceptance and academic standards (higher than 00.00%) for hockey scholarship holders from a couple of championship schools listed above. One example won't do much for me, but a couple-three would greatly improve the reputation of college hockey.