UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

[Busua]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

While I understood kicking him off the team, and think a one year hiatus would have been more appropriate, I did not quite understand kicking him out of school. Do most colleges expel students who get a DUI? Yes, I know he was on scholarship but that sort of punishment, depriving a kid of education, always strikes me as a nonsensical choice of punishments.

As for Swami's zero-tolerance view, I think it is too purist and would reply that redemption is a fine virtue too. It is particularly appropriate when dealing with the 18-25 year old set. A lot of growing up occurs during those years... well, usually. I have no problem with the program giving Frattin a second chance provided it is given with the expectation that he will work his butt off to deserve it. Plus, it is great that DU's players have not put their program in the same situation -- kudos to the players -- but I would hope DU would do what UND has done with Frattin (except stick with a full year) if/when put into the same situation.

Go Sioux!

[brianvf]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

Wed update from the Sioux blog:

http://www.areavoices.com/undhockey/?blog=67297

The weekly press conferences were held in the morning, because the team is practicing earlier with no school going on.

It started with coach Dave Hakstol and forward Matt Frattin addressing the media about Frattin's return. Hakstol said that there's a good chance Frattin will be in the lineup on Saturday when the Sioux play Niagara. There will be more from Frattin later.

As for the injury situation, nothing has changed in regards to Chay Genoway. He will not play in Notre Dame's tournament this weekend, but he will make the trip with the rest of the team.

"It will be nice not having to see him standing in the tunnel as the bus pulls away," Hakstol said.

Darcy Zajac also is making the trip with the team. He's not going to play this weekend after having hernia surgery a couple of weeks ago. But Hakstol said that Zajac is making good progress and is either ahead of schedule or right on schedule. Zajac already is doing light skating.

Brett Hextall said that the first three practices this week have been pretty spirited and tough. He also said there is an excitement in the air around the locker room with Frattin being back.

Good to hear that both Genoway and Zajac will be making the trip, despite not being able to play. Great news on Zajac already skating! And you have to think that Genoway is close to returning if he can make the trip with the team. Looking forward to seeing what Fratts can do against Niagara!

[Stack]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

I am not surprised Frattin enrolled back in school. I am not surprised he will practice with the team. I am surprised that shortly after re-enrolling in school that he is traveling with the team to Chicago with the possiblity of playing already.

I had told my friends that if Frattin enrolled for the second semester that he'd be playing hockey the second half of the season if he kept his nose clean. My friends were like Puck Swami and said "No Way! Hakstol suspended him for a year. He didn't. He kicked him off the team and said his status would depend on Matt.

I would have preferred for Frattin to sit an entire year but I fully expect him to play the second half of this season for the Sioux. I can only hope he learned his lesson.

[sfo19]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

I don't think it takes multiple offenses to be fair game for outside scrutiny. We're all entitled to our opinion on the matter. I simply indicated I don't intend to publicize mine since I don't feel I have enough information.

I don't envy coaches placed in this position. I recall a UND player a few years ago, I think Matt Greene, got a DUI over in MN while he was still on the team. I think he was suspended for a game or series, and I think the program and coaches probably caught some heat for that.

I went back and looked at the original story on Frattin's release, and it ended with Hak saying Matt's situaton could be reviewed later in the season.

The arrests and the charges always bring a big news splash, lots of second guessing, etc..., but not so much with the final outcome.

Whatever happened to the players in the lawnmower incident? What was the outcome of Matt's DUI arrest? I only ask because, again, this is information I don't have, and makes it that much tougher for me to judge.

Matt hasn't gone to court yet for the DUI. He entered a not guilty plea in November and the case goes to court in February if I can recall. His punishment for the lawnmower incident was a fine and a 10 day jail sentence suspended for one year.

[Puck Swami]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

This might be true wasmania, but Swami is about a fair an individual as it comes at USCHO and I believe he'd scrutinize this situation every bit the same way if Frattin were a Pioneer.

If Frattin were a Pioneer, I'd say the exact same thing. I would not want to win games with players that did not deserve the privilege of wearing the jersey of a great program, be it UND, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Denver, CC or anyone else - I think high standards are worth upholding, and if my own school did not display high standards, I wouldn't hestitate to call them on it.

[SJHovey]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

Anytime a player runs afoul of the law multiple times, I think the outside scrutiny becomes much more fair game because it's not just a team or a school matter anymore. It's a matter of public record, and hurts the school's reputation.

The greater question in my mind is one of standards, and how much we are willing to bend them in the name of second (third?) chances and winning hockey games.

In short, I think that wearing a Sioux jersey should be one of the greatest privileges in all of sports. It is a jersey that carries a long and proud tradition with it, and I think the school should be be reserving it for those players who choose to live their lives in an appropriate manner.

Allowing Frattin back into the fold, I think, sends the wrong message around the country. It says essentially that 'boys will be boys', and as long as you're sorry for what you did (and can help us win), there is a jersey waiting for you, even when you are arrested multiple times and one of them is a very serious adult offense (DUI) that comes after a prior arrest. Frattin may have done wonderous things since his arrests, but I think mid-season is too soon for a return, given the gravity of what we all know he did. Hak should have waited until next year at a minimum. I am not knocking the Sioux here - there are a lot of schools that migth have let him back- I just think they missed an opportunity to hold the program to a higher standard.

As for Denver's dirty laundry, it's simply not comparable - Knock on wood, but no active Pioneer hockey player has been ever been arrested or convicted of a crime while enrolled at Denver in Gwozdecky's tenure since 1994. That's not to say the DU players are all choir boys (I am sure they are not) but so far, when an active DU player gets into serious off-ice trouble, even when the police are not involved, the evidence we have is that they no longer get to wear the DU uniform (See Trotter, Brock).

I don't think it takes multiple offenses to be fair game for outside scrutiny. We're all entitled to our opinion on the matter. I simply indicated I don't intend to publicize mine since I don't feel I have enough information.

I don't envy coaches placed in this position. I recall a UND player a few years ago, I think Matt Greene, got a DUI over in MN while he was still on the team. I think he was suspended for a game or series, and I think the program and coaches probably caught some heat for that.

I went back and looked at the original story on Frattin's release, and it ended with Hak saying Matt's situaton could be reviewed later in the season.

The arrests and the charges always bring a big news splash, lots of second guessing, etc..., but not so much with the final outcome.

Whatever happened to the players in the lawnmower incident? What was the outcome of Matt's DUI arrest? I only ask because, again, this is information I don't have, and makes it that much tougher for me to judge.

[brianvf]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

Also. is this a sign that they might redshirt Chay?

I doubt the Frattin/Genoway situations have anything to do with each other.
Possibly the Zajac injury played a role in Frattin's earlier-than-anticipated return, but not the Genoway injury.

[Sloe Gin]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

Brendan Smith. 2 DUI's - One game suspension. (A Wisco fan can correct me if I am wrong). Punishment really fit the crime there.

yeah, typical classy 'Sconni.

As I said earlier, there might be a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff going on that we don't know about. I'm guessing this decision wasn't easy and wouldn't have been done unless the coaching staff knew exactly what they were doing.

Also. is this a sign that they might redshirt Chay?

[Slap Shot]

Too bad Denver keeps all their dirty laundry under wraps or we could have a contrast and compare discussion.

This might be true wasmania, but Swami is about a fair an individual as it comes at USCHO and I believe he'd scrutinize this situation every bit the same way if Frattin were a Pioneer.

[sfo19]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

I'm a little surprised, but mostly because I didn't expect him back, especially at the mid-season point.

As you point out, I'm sure UND fans will welcome him back, and I'm equally sure the decision of Hak and his staff will be criticized far and wide by fans of other teams. Please understand I don't take your post as criticism, but as a fair question.

A few years ago I posted my opinion that I think it's unfair for those of us outside of a program to second guess the decision of a coaching staff on disciplinary matters. Simply because we don't have all of the facts and know what's gone on.

I kind of look at it like I do the neighbor's kids. I might not have disciplined them in the same way as my friends next door, but I feel somewhat uncomfortable judging from afar.

A DUI is a serious offense. Would I have handled discipline differently if I were the coach. Maybe. But I don't know Matt Frattin. I don't know the circumstances of the incident beyond what's been reported in the media. I don't know what Matt has done since the summer to rehabilitate himself in the eyes of the program. I'm just a guy at a computer, and sitting in the stands at a lot of the games, so I decline to say the decision was right or wrong.

Brendan Smith. 2 DUI's - One game suspension. (A Wisco fan can correct me if I am wrong). Punishment really fit the crime there.

In regards to Matt, I'm glad he's back. It took a lot of committment to stick with it and not give up and pursue other hockey options. I'm surprised he's back right now... but I was expecting him back at some point. Additionally, it's not fair to judge the circumstances and decisions made if you are not there.

[Puck Swami]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

Anytime a player runs afoul of the law multiple times, I think the outside scrutiny becomes much more fair game because it's not just a team or a school matter anymore. It's a matter of public record, and hurts the school's reputation.

The greater question in my mind is one of standards, and how much we are willing to bend them in the name of second (third?) chances and winning hockey games.

In short, I think that wearing a Sioux jersey should be one of the greatest privileges in all of sports. It is a jersey that carries a long and proud tradition with it, and I think the school should be be reserving it for those players who choose to live their lives in an appropriate manner.

Allowing Frattin back into the fold, I think, sends the wrong message around the country. It says essentially that 'boys will be boys', and as long as you're sorry for what you did (and can help us win), there is a jersey waiting for you, even when you are arrested multiple times and one of them is a very serious adult offense (DUI) that comes after a prior arrest. Frattin may have done wonderous things since his arrests, but I think mid-season is too soon for a return, given the gravity of what we all know he did. Hak should have waited until next year at a minimum. I am not knocking the Sioux here - there are a lot of schools that migth have let him back- I just think they missed an opportunity to hold the program to a higher standard.

As for Denver's dirty laundry, it's simply not comparable - Knock on wood, but no active Pioneer hockey player has been ever been arrested or convicted of a crime while enrolled at Denver in Gwozdecky's tenure since 1994. That's not to say the DU players are all choir boys (I am sure they are not) but so far, when an active DU player gets into serious off-ice trouble, even when the police are not involved, the evidence we have is that they no longer get to wear the DU uniform (See Trotter, Brock).

[brianvf]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

I'm a little surprised, but mostly because I didn't expect him back, especially at the mid-season point.

As you point out, I'm sure UND fans will welcome him back, and I'm equally sure the decision of Hak and his staff will be criticized far and wide by fans of other teams. Please understand I don't take your post as criticism, but as a fair question.

A few years ago I posted my opinion that I think it's unfair for those of us outside of a program to second guess the decision of a coaching staff on disciplinary matters. Simply because we don't have all of the facts and know what's gone on.

I kind of look at it like I do the neighbor's kids. I might not have disciplined them in the same way as my friends next door, but I feel somewhat uncomfortable judging from afar.

A DUI is a serious offense. Would I have handled discipline differently if I were the coach. Maybe. But I don't know Matt Frattin. I don't know the circumstances of the incident beyond what's been reported in the media. I don't know what Matt has done since the summer to rehabilitate himself in the eyes of the program. I'm just a guy at a computer, and sitting in the stands at a lot of the games, so I decline to say the decision was right or wrong.

My thoughts on it resemble the above.

[jdr1]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

My wedding hosing story is better, I think. I was planning on going to the Frozen Four in Denver. My moron, Bison fan of a cousin decides to have his wedding that weekend. Where does my cousin go on his honeymoon? Denver.

did you go with as the spare tire!!!

[SJHovey]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

Anyone else a little surprised by Frattin's mid-season return to UND hockey?

Essentially, he got a three month suspension for his alcohol-fueled summer. The lawnmower night arrest could have happened to anyone, but the DUI a month later was really appalling, not only because everyone knows how really serious DUIs are, but because the guy had already been arrested just a month earlier, and should have learned his lesson then. I would have expected UND to suspend him for the whole season at a minimum, and would not have been surprised to see him kicked out of school for good, given his rather blatant disregard for learning from his first mistake.

I would expect most Sioux fans to support Frattin's reinstatement, since the guy is a very good hockey player. But are there any UND posters who are still uncomfortable with the sentence fitting the crime (s)?

I'm a little surprised, but mostly because I didn't expect him back, especially at the mid-season point.

As you point out, I'm sure UND fans will welcome him back, and I'm equally sure the decision of Hak and his staff will be criticized far and wide by fans of other teams. Please understand I don't take your post as criticism, but as a fair question.

A few years ago I posted my opinion that I think it's unfair for those of us outside of a program to second guess the decision of a coaching staff on disciplinary matters. Simply because we don't have all of the facts and know what's gone on.

I kind of look at it like I do the neighbor's kids. I might not have disciplined them in the same way as my friends next door, but I feel somewhat uncomfortable judging from afar.

A DUI is a serious offense. Would I have handled discipline differently if I were the coach. Maybe. But I don't know Matt Frattin. I don't know the circumstances of the incident beyond what's been reported in the media. I don't know what Matt has done since the summer to rehabilitate himself in the eyes of the program. I'm just a guy at a computer, and sitting in the stands at a lot of the games, so I decline to say the decision was right or wrong.

[wasmania]

Re: UND 2009-2010 Season Thread - The Lawnmower and Cookie tossing edition!

Anyone else a little surprised by Frattin's mid-season return to UND hockey?

Essentially, he got a three month suspension for his alcohol-fueled summer. The lawnmower night arrest could have happened to anyone, but the DUI a month later was really appalling, not only because everyone knows how really serious DUIs are, but because the guy had already been arrested just a month earlier, and should have learned his lesson then. I would have expected UND to suspend him for the whole season at a minimum, and would not have been surprised to see him kicked out of school for good, given his rather blatant disregard for learning from his first mistake.

I would expect most Sioux fans to support Frattin's reinstatement, since the guy is a very good hockey player. But are there any UND posters who are still uncomfortable with the sentence fitting the crime (s)?

Too bad Denver keeps all their dirty laundry under wraps or we could have a contrast and compare discussion.