Ford Field Rink Installation

[MaizeRage]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

As for the incline and the dressing rooms, my comment as I made the walk up during the tour at the CCHA tourney, was that they should have a fleet of golf carts to shuttle the players.

It sounds like that might be a possibility for goaltenders.

[LtPowers]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Where will the broadcasters be located? Anyone know?


Powers &8^]

[davyd83]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Where will the broadcasters be located? Anyone know?


Powers &8^]

On the concourse level of the fixed seating behind the benches. The normal end zone seating, at least the radio will be. I would assume that ESPN will have their crew on the same side as the cameras.

[STATEdude3]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Where will the broadcasters be located? Anyone know?


Powers &8^]

If past outdoor games is any indication, they will be above the risers near the cameras. Their regular location is in the center of the Suite Wall and the view would be terrible, if not hidden by the risers.

[Caustic Undertow]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

A couple of comments here. As you indicated at the beginning, next weekend will tell the story.

For starters, a reasonably and quality response. Worth continuing in conversation.

My objections to this being held at Ford Field have nothing to do with it being in Detroit. While I don't have Detroit on my list of places that I want to visit sometime (as opposed to DC, Denver, St Louis, Boston and Tampa) I think you're right, Detroit is a natural and historic fit as a location for the event. If this were being held at Joe Louis, I don't think anybody would be complaining about the site. In fact, I'm surprised that it's taken so long (20 years) to be back in Detroit.

I was not attempting to portray a prejudice against the city; rather, I was illustrating the logical pressure in favor of holding the sport's signature event in one of its flagship cities. 20 years between Frozen Fours in Michigan, when they being awarded to worthy but less significant venues like St. Louis, D.C. and Columbus is too long, and I think the powers-that-be understood this. Rather, the issue is the lack of a quality venue in Detroit.

I disagree that nobody would have an issue with the Joe as a venue. It may not have caused the noise now heard about Ford Field, but Joe is one of the worst conceivable places for a Frozen Four. It has 20,000 seats, a nice sheet of ice, and the requisite number of locker rooms; in all other respects it is wholly inadequate to host the sport's flagship event. It looks terrible, it is in a back-corner location of Detroit near nothing, the concourses are dreadful, and it is not even beloved by the tradition-bleeding fans who populate it game after game. It would be a much-loathed disaster, the worst venue for a Frozen Four since Cincinnati. Nobody in their right mind would host it there.

The Palace is a newer, nicer arena, but again unworkable--it's not in town near things to do. It would be kind of like hosting a Frozen Four in Chicago, but with the arena actually located in Joliet near nothing, managed by a company with no interest in hockey that rarely even has ice on the floor.

Ford Field is actually by far the nicest and most event-friendly indoor venue in the Detroit area. I believe they looked to Ford Field not because they were looking for a stunt, but because the CCHA had been mostly ignored in Frozen Four locations over the past two decades and a never-before-tried arrangement at Ford Field was the only tenable option.

At football/baseball stadiums, you generally have a shallower angle to the seats than at a basketball/hockey arena. This matters, especially since there is also typically a dropoff of some number of feel from the lowest level of seating to the surface the game is being played on. In football and baseball, this isn't an issue because the actual area that the game is played on is inset from the edge somewhat, with spare players, etc filling up the in-between area. So having a shallow angle that's raised somewhat allows fans to look over the team on the sidelines and still see the actual playing field.

This is often inaccurate, at least in regards to football stadia. Baseball stadiums do have shallow angles, but most football stadium angles are quite steep, and some (irrelevantly, in the SEC) are downright frightening. A number of college hockey venues, such as Mariucci and Yost, have steep seating angles themselves. However, modern NHL arenas are built with very shallow lower bowl angles--I remember visiting a friend 25 rows up center ice in Buffalo, and being disappointed that you could not see any ice over the glass--very low. The X is the same way. This is a reaction to the necessity of putting luxury boxes and a balcony over the seats without making them too high.

Ford Field does not have a tremendous angle of seating, but it is steeper than lower bowls of modern NHL arenas, and its seat construction has the advantage of not having luxury boxes to deal with in the seating deck structure.

A properly set up hockey/basketball facility, on the other hand, has a steeper angle, but the seats get very close the to the edge of the playing surface, and the bottom row of seats is generally effectively at the same level as the playing surface.

In order to set up a hockey rink in a football stadium, there is forced dead space in between the spectators and the structure of the rink itself, this leads to the reviews that I've seen for every stadium hockey game that I've seen in that the view of the game ranged from mediocre to horrible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are describing the typical outdoor game setup with the rink in the middle of the field, wide tracts of space separating the boards from the stands. They originally planned to do Ford Field the same way (which I objected to) but saw reason and rotated the ice to sit at a 90 degree angle across the field in one endzone. This puts one side of the ice and both goals very close to the seats, and while there is a little bit of space, it is partially filled in with shallow angle seats and partially mitigated by the elevation of those rows. The resulting actual viewing distance and angle, from pictures of the setup, appears to be at worst slightly less optimal than at a standard arena; at best, in the upper decks, at least as good. I suspect people will very pleasantly surprised with their views from the upper deck. This is part of what makes Ford Field so uniquely well suited for this.

The reviews from other football field games involve a seating situation that does not exist here, and thus have little application. For what it's worth, I sat in the upper deck of Spartan Stadium at the Cold War, and my view was great.

Again, I have no objection at all to getting thirty-plus thousand people into the Frozen Four, but I want those newcomers to the college game that I love so much to have the same kind of experience I have watching hockey games at the Xcel/Pepsi/Verizon Center, Mariucci/Ralph Englestad Arenas, etc. These are all very well designed to be able to watch hockey in.

And no, I don't want college hockey to fail, I want this experiment to not be duplicated for the championships again. Figure out a way to get 30K people in to see the game at an actual hockey arena and I'd be all for it. I think that would be great to get that many new people hooked on this.

Fair enough. The only other place where this would be remotely feasible is the HHH, but we already know that the NCAA is perfectly happy using the fabulous hockey arena in the Cities for this event, so I don't see that happening. I want people to get the feel of great locations like that, too--unfortunately, those types of arenas do not exist in Detroit, at least not yet. Momentum appears to be building for a new downtown arena, and if one is built I have no doubt that the FF will be back in town and in the new arena.

My major point is that while I personally like the idea of expanding the event a bit and gaining wider attention (and If GravaLeast hadn't jumped on that whistle, Michigan would be there and it would be unreal), that is not the only reason Ford Field happened. It happened to include one of the three flagship states of college hockey in an event that had been gone in 20 years, and did so in the way that was least unattractive.

Hopefully, they've figured out some way to set things up to address the concerns I have, but somehow I rather doubt it, and I'll be finding out first hand next weekend.

Keep an open mind, and enjoy what you do get--a nice weekend in the nice area of Detroit on a dynamite weekend in a facility that, while ill-suited for hockey, is a great place to be. If you want to see what you could have gotten, make the trip to the JLA. Lament missing its sightlines, be thankful you don't have to use its restrooms.

[Steve_MN]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

For starters, a reasonably and quality response. Worth continuing in conversation.

Why, thank you. I don't post a whole lot here, so when I do, I try not to be too incoherent.

I was not attempting to portray a prejudice against the city; rather, I was illustrating the logical pressure in favor of holding the sport's signature event in one of its flagship cities. 20 years between Frozen Fours in Michigan, when they being awarded to worthy but less significant venues like St. Louis, D.C. and Columbus is too long, and I think the powers-that-be understood this.

Definitely too long.

Rather, the issue is the lack of a quality venue in Detroit.

I disagree that nobody would have an issue with the Joe as a venue. It may not have caused the noise now heard about Ford Field, but Joe is one of the worst conceivable places for a Frozen Four. It has 20,000 seats, a nice sheet of ice, and the requisite number of locker rooms; in all other respects it is wholly inadequate to host the sport's flagship event. It looks terrible, it is in a back-corner location of Detroit near nothing, the concourses are dreadful, and it is not even beloved by the tradition-bleeding fans who populate it game after game. It would be a much-loathed disaster, the worst venue for a Frozen Four since Cincinnati. Nobody in their right mind would host it there.

I've only been going since 2004 in Boston, but even hearing "Cincinnati" in this context makes me shudder.

I guess I didn't realize that JLA was lacking to that degree.

This is often inaccurate, at least in regards to football stadia. Baseball stadiums do have shallow angles, but most football stadium angles are quite steep, and some (irrelevantly, in the SEC) are downright frightening. A number of college hockey venues, such as Mariucci and Yost, have steep seating angles themselves. However, modern NHL arenas are built with very shallow lower bowl angles--I remember visiting a friend 25 rows up center ice in Buffalo, and being disappointed that you could not see any ice over the glass--very low. The X is the same way. This is a reaction to the necessity of putting luxury boxes and a balcony over the seats without making them too high.

Ford Field does not have a tremendous angle of seating, but it is steeper than lower bowls of modern NHL arenas, and its seat construction has the advantage of not having luxury boxes to deal with in the seating deck structure.

Admittedly, it can be hard to tell from pictures, but with what's been posted on CCHA's website about getting the place set up, it sure looks to me like the seating is at a shallower angle than the lower bowl at the X. Being from the Minneapolis/St Paul area, I admit we're spoiled when it comes to quality hockey facilities

Another issue, that's been partially addressed earlier, is the angle of the seats relative to the playing surface as well. Looking at the seating chart I got in the mail, it looks like the section I'm in (104) is pointed such that, if I sit back in my seat and look straight ahead, I'll be looking AWAY from the ice. It sounds like the degree to which this is true isn't quite as bad as the graphic in the mail indicates, though, so we'll see.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are describing the typical outdoor game setup with the rink in the middle of the field, wide tracts of space separating the boards from the stands. They originally planned to do Ford Field the same way (which I objected to) but saw reason and rotated the ice to sit at a 90 degree angle across the field in one endzone. This puts one side of the ice and both goals very close to the seats, and while there is a little bit of space, it is partially filled in with shallow angle seats and partially mitigated by the elevation of those rows. The resulting actual viewing distance and angle, from pictures of the setup, appears to be at worst slightly less optimal than at a standard arena; at best, in the upper decks, at least as good. I suspect people will very pleasantly surprised with their views from the upper deck. This is part of what makes Ford Field so uniquely well suited for this.

To some extent this is true, but knowing they were doing it in the end zone I waited until I saw pictures of the setup to comment. Having seen the amount of space between the stands (other than temporary bleachers, which weren't in the pics I saw) and the walls of the rink, my initial concerns still stand.

The reviews from other football field games involve a seating situation that does not exist here, and thus have little application. For what it's worth, I sat in the upper deck of Spartan Stadium at the Cold War, and my view was great.

Fair enough. The only other place where this would be remotely feasible is the HHH, but we already know that the NCAA is perfectly happy using the fabulous hockey arena in the Cities for this event, so I don't see that happening. I want people to get the feel of great locations like that, too--unfortunately, those types of arenas do not exist in Detroit, at least not yet. Momentum appears to be building for a new downtown arena, and if one is built I have no doubt that the FF will be back in town and in the new arena.

NOOooooooooo not the Metrodump eeeeewwwww....

As far as the sightlines and everything, like we've said, I'll find out for sure Thursday evening. I plan on having my camera with me and wandering up to the cheap seats to get a feel for what things look like up there, as well as down in the lower level where the long-time fans tend to be.

I didn't include this in my previous post, but my biggest concern with holding the event in a football stadium in relation to getting new fans interested is that they'll show up to their first college hockey championship, perhaps even their first college hockey game, and leave thinking it was a nice experience being there, but never bother going to more games again because they can't see the action enough to get into the game itself. So, the game gets exposed to new people who walk away and never do anything more with it. That's probably almost worse than them not getting exposed in the first place.

My major point is that while I personally like the idea of expanding the event a bit and gaining wider attention (and If GravaLeast hadn't jumped on that whistle, Michigan would be there and it would be unreal), that is not the only reason Ford Field happened. It happened to include one of the three flagship states of college hockey in an event that had been gone in 20 years, and did so in the way that was least unattractive.

Oh definitely, they needed to figure out a way to get this back to Michigan. While my opinion on the teams from the state range from complete lack of caring to near hatred, it's absolutely ridiculous that it's been 20 years since the finals were held there.

Keep an open mind, and enjoy what you do get--a nice weekend in the nice area of Detroit on a dynamite weekend in a facility that, while ill-suited for hockey, is a great place to be. If you want to see what you could have gotten, make the trip to the JLA. Lament missing its sightlines, be thankful you don't have to use its restrooms.

Oh, I'm definitely willing to be proven wrong, and, truth be told, I hope I AM wrong. I don't want to be spending a weekend in crappy seating in a dead environment for this, I want there to be some excitement and be able to enjoy the games.

[STATEdude3]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

This will be about the most extreme angle view in the lower bowl...

http://www.ccha.com/assets/1/workflo...x450/16906.JPG

[Caustic Undertow]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

I guess I didn't realize that JLA was lacking to that degree.

When visiting a group of Michigan fans at the X, one of the most knowledgeable ones who had been watching hockey the longest remarked, unprompted, "Detroit needs an arena like this." The X puts you further away from the action than the Joe, no question, but the quality is a worthwhile tradeoff. The Red Wings are seriously considering playing an hour away at the Palace, where they would have to share time with the Pistons--that's how much it needs replacing.

Admittedly, it can be hard to tell from pictures, but with what's been posted on CCHA's website about getting the place set up, it sure looks to me like the seating is at a shallower angle than the lower bowl at the X. Being from the Minneapolis/St Paul area, I admit we're spoiled when it comes to quality hockey facilities

Another issue, that's been partially addressed earlier, is the angle of the seats relative to the playing surface as well. Looking at the seating chart I got in the mail, it looks like the section I'm in (104) is pointed such that, if I sit back in my seat and look straight ahead, I'll be looking AWAY from the ice. It sounds like the degree to which this is true isn't quite as bad as the graphic in the mail indicates, though, so we'll see.

In my zeal to argue in favor of Ford Field I should not give the impression that it will somehow be better to watch a game in than a dedicated hockey arena; obviously the seats are not designed for it. I guess my argument, in response to the foaming-at-the-mouth vitriol by some Ford Field opposers, is that it won't be bad. Not every seat will be perfectly placed, but the view available is still good and the inconvenience for most will be small. There are college hockey arenas with seat angles and sightlines that are just as awkward. Yost, for example, has seats in the high corners that point at the press box and feel about eight miles from the ice. It is my opinion that it should not significantly take away from one's ability to enjoy the games unless one focuses on it.

To some extent this is true, but knowing they were doing it in the end zone I waited until I saw pictures of the setup to comment. Having seen the amount of space between the stands (other than temporary bleachers, which weren't in the pics I saw) and the walls of the rink, my initial concerns still stand.

The front row won't be fabulous, though hopefully there will still be a decent view of the action. As the rows run higher the view rapidly improves, with the slight mitigating advantage that you have less trouble looking over the person in front of you.

As far as the sightlines and everything, like we've said, I'll find out for sure Thursday evening. I plan on having my camera with me and wandering up to the cheap seats to get a feel for what things look like up there, as well as down in the lower level where the long-time fans tend to be.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the upper deck. In 2003 I attended a Lions-Broncos game in Denver with my wife on our honeymoon, and we sat in the second row of the upper deck. Later that year I saw the Lions and Chargers at Ford Field, and my seat in the last row of the upper deck was at least as close to the field as those second row seats in Denver.

I didn't include this in my previous post, but my biggest concern with holding the event in a football stadium in relation to getting new fans interested is that they'll show up to their first college hockey championship, perhaps even their first college hockey game, and leave thinking it was a nice experience being there, but never bother going to more games again because they can't see the action enough to get into the game itself. So, the game gets exposed to new people who walk away and never do anything more with it. That's probably almost worse than them not getting exposed in the first place.

Fair point. The optimistic view is that the place will be well attended and the different fanbases will make noise and it will be a spectacle. If a local team had made it there certainly would have been a larger chance for this scenario. Of course, the problem with events like this is that you don't get that home arena atmosphere unless you have a home team at the event, and things wind up neutral-site tame.

It is a sensible critique to suggest that some level of success of this event was dependent on either Michigan or Michigan State making the Frozen Four. Obviously if either had been in Detroit the place would be packed and the local attention would be unbelievable. I still think it will be a good event, and with the additional bonus of opening day happening that weekend, it will be a great time to be in Detroit, but it will be hard not to notice that Michigan could have sold out the whole place on its own if it had been there.

I wish I could be there.

[Steve_MN]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

This will be about the most extreme angle view in the lower bowl...

http://www.ccha.com/assets/1/workflo...x450/16906.JPG

If I read the chart right, I think I'm 2 sections to the left of that, so I hope it won't be too bad.

On the flip side, if I had THAT seat to watch the game from, I'd be marching to the box office and demanding my money back. Having to turn 45+ degrees in your seat just to be facing the surface? You've GOT to be kidding me.

[chickod]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

So it's not the city that's the problem, it's the venue.

Amen...

[MUhawks628]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

and it is not even beloved by the tradition-bleeding fans who populate it game after game.

Great post, but that is simply not true. Maybe one very knowledgeable Detroit fan you were sitting with dislikes the JLA but I can guarantee you that the vast majority of fans will be devastated to see the Wings leave for the Palace or Cobo.

That isn't to say the Joe is not falling apart, and is in need of some serious work. Just clarifying the general feeling towards the place.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Great post, but that is simply not true. Maybe one very knowledgeable Detroit fan you were sitting with dislikes the JLA but I can guarantee you that the vast majority of fans will be devastated to see the Wings leave for the Palace or Cobo.

That isn't to say the Joe is not falling apart, and is in need of some serious work. Just clarifying the general feeling towards the place.

I went to the Joe for the first time this year, the GLI to be exact. Honestly, it was the most antiquated, out of date, dingy arena I've ever been to. The best thing to do to it is just implode it. I'm not a fan of Detroit, but as an outsider, I would hope that they would be able to build a new arena close to Ford Field and Comerica. I don't think it is a viable option for them to move to the Palace or anywhere else.

[MUhawks628]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

I went to the Joe for the first time this year, the GLI to be exact. Honestly, it was the most antiquated, out of date, dingy arena I've ever been to. The best thing to do to it is just implode it. I'm not a fan of Detroit, but as an outsider, I would hope that they would be able to build a new arena close to Ford Field and Comerica. I don't think it is a viable option for them to move to the Palace or anywhere else.

Haha, well fair enough . With the way Illitch was dropping payroll for the Tigers this off season, the state of the economy, and it just being Detroit/Michigan in general it would seem unlikely that the money is there to build a new arena. I would much rather see them stay at the Joe then share the Palace with the Pistons (talk about a characterless arena). But I'm sentimental when it comes to the place.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

Haha, well fair enough . With the way Illitch was dropping payroll for the Tigers this off season, the state of the economy, and it just being Detroit/Michigan in general it would seem unlikely that the money is there to build a new arena. I would much rather see them stay at the Joe then share the Palace with the Pistons (talk about a characterless arena). But I'm sentimental when it comes to the place.

I don't expect a new arena to be built for the Wings any time soon because of what you said here. Money. I highly doubt anyone in Detroit has the Red Wings new arena at the top of their priorities right now. I agree on the palace, even though I have never been there, but being from MN, I imagine it would be like hockey in the Target Center. Maybe the Wings can just play at Ford Field.

[Clifton]

Re: Ford Field Rink Installation

I don't expect a new arena to be built for the Wings any time soon because of what you said here. Money. I highly doubt anyone in Detroit has the Red Wings new arena at the top of their priorities right now. I agree on the palace, even though I have never been there, but being from MN, I imagine it would be like hockey in the Target Center. Maybe the Wings can just play at Ford Field.

From what I've heard about the Target Center, the Palace is better than that for hockey; the Palace was built with hockey sightlines in mind, but not as the primary focus.

As far as the Wings go, there are some crazy ideas floating around right now. Remarkably, they're not all that crazy when you sit down and think it through. The most comprehensive one:
1. The Wings move to the Palace for 2-4 years.
2. Mike Illitch buys the Palace, the Pistons, or both (not so farfetched when you realize that Illitch just hired the man who was responsible for the construction fo the Palace).
3. A new sports-only arena gets built downtown (a mystery buyer has been gobbling up land in the area around the Fox Theater)
4. The Wings AND Pistons move into the new arena.
5. The Palace becomes a concert-only venue.