Show me the money--Players turning pro

[JB]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

That's all I'm saying. A private University to my knowledge does not get public funds that go into their account for them to operate on.

I think you are mssing the point actually.

A public university gets operating funds from the State. In the case of UNH for example it is really, reall small amount. Private Universities don't get these operating funds from the State. I am not sure these funds from the State actually count on the Federal title IX law.

I am no title IX expert but I don't think the Federal backed student loans count, as those are loans to students that are then paid to the University "by" the student - even if this process is a bit of a shell game. I think these operate more along the line of ho you think the grants operate. From a title IX view of the world I believe the grants are the killer and that is the money the feds are paying attention to reference this compliance.

Could be wrong but that is how I have understood it.

[Osorojo]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

You don't see the relationship. A research getting NSF grants is more like a sub-contractor then a University employee. If they failed to get grants their employment would end. Assuming they are non-tenure.

By saying a University receives public money the meaning is that they are getting money to operate on.
With grants that is not the case. They receive the money which is for the research to operate on. The University has no entitlement, say over, or rights to that money. It isn't theirs.

That's all I'm saying. A private University to my knowledge does not get public funds that go into their account for them to operate on.

I attended a private, endowed university on a New York State Regents College Scholarship. The state did not deposit the money in my account, but in the university's account. The university spent it. The same thing has happened to hundreds of thousands of college students in New York State, and presumably some other states offer their high school graduates attending private schools academic (not athletic) scholarships. Those of you sufficiently desperate to protect your ignorance about public aid and private institutions can ignore or try to equivocate about these facts, but doing so won't change the truth.
Nobody's claiming that government does not profit from the money it invests in higher education institutions. The Pentagon and the NSA often demand results from their investmnets, especially those made in "liberal/socialist" universities, but these are two-way deals. The claim that government scholarships and grants do NOT support private colleges and universities is blatant dishonesty at its unconvincing worst. In close second place is the claim that it's ethical and ultimately profitable to subordinate academics to athletics in colleges and universities.

[jcarter7669]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

A public university that's subsidized by the gov't? Say it ain't so!

You are splitting the finest of hairs when saying that NSF grant money does not go to the universities (and I still contend that other public money does go directly to them). If the NSF stopped giving out money tomorrow, private universities would have to lay off tens of thousands of faculty and staff, and it would effectively close dozens if not hundreds of private universities. Therefore, those universities only exist because of the public money, no matter whose money you call it.

You don't see the relationship. A research getting NSF grants is more like a sub-contractor then a University employee. If they failed to get grants their employment would end. Assuming they are non-tenure.

By saying a University receives public money the meaning is that they are getting money to operate on.
With grants that is not the case. They receive the money which is for the research to operate on. The University has no entitlement, say over, or rights to that money. It isn't theirs.

That's all I'm saying. A private University to my knowledge does not get public funds that go into their account for them to operate on.

[LynahFan]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

I mean by that logic UVM is heavily subsidized by the gov't because they get money from investments on General Dynamics which has contracts with the military funded through DOD a part of the Gov't. I mean the assertion is just silly.

A public university that's subsidized by the gov't? Say it ain't so!

You are splitting the finest of hairs when saying that NSF grant money does not go to the universities (and I still contend that other public money does go directly to them). If the NSF stopped giving out money tomorrow, private universities would have to lay off tens of thousands of faculty and staff, and it would effectively close dozens if not hundreds of private universities. Therefore, those universities only exist because of the public money, no matter whose money you call it.

[jcarter7669]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

I don't have the exact specifics of how Private Schools receive funding that the government counts toward title IX. I am fairly sure the government considers research grants part of that formula, as the Professor uses the schools facilities amongst other things.

What I do know is if the school receives zero federal dollars they are not bound to the rules of title IX. The issue is there are few if any Universities that meet that requirement because the Feds (and the courts) consider their research dollars to count in the title IX rules.

I am not going to argue if it is right, just that it is!

Lynah already posted title IX which says if a school accepts students that receive federal financial aid.

Frankly, I am not arguing about title IX in any way, I am only responding to OsroJr that Universities receive public money. They don't. Lynah doesn't seem to get.

Yes a private university is in possesion of public monies with regards to grants, but it isn't their money. Its the same thing as saying a bank receives money from private investors because you deposit your paycheck there. The money doesn't go to the college, its not their money. If you give money to a lawyer to start a trust, it isn't the lawyers money.


As for the issue of researchers using school facilities, they do, and they also pay for it. They provide a service for which they are paid by the investigator who got money from the gov't for a grant the investigator got. The university did not get money directly from the federal gov't.

I mean by that logic UVM is heavily subsidized by the gov't because they get money from investments on General Dynamics which has contracts with the military funded through DOD a part of the Gov't. I mean the assertion is just silly.

[JB]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

Again, is their evidence that a private school receives funding from the public, and I will specify for clarity, directly?

I don't have the exact specifics of how Private Schools receive funding that the government counts toward title IX. I am fairly sure the government considers research grants part of that formula, as the Professor uses the schools facilities amongst other things.

What I do know is if the school receives zero federal dollars they are not bound to the rules of title IX. The issue is there are few if any Universities that meet that requirement because the Feds (and the courts) consider their research dollars to count in the title IX rules.

I am not going to argue if it is right, just that it is!

[LynahFan]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

There is no table A-9 and you clearly do not understand how funding works. I used to think Cornell was a good school but I now have determined that all 5 of the Cornell students I know are unbelievably ignorant.

Do you think NSF is going to write a check for 500K to an individual person to dole out over the course of the grant? No they send it to the school, and give the researcher a budget account to draw from.

And the physics dept writing a grant? Whisky-tango-foxtrot is wrong with you? Of course the Physics Dept. doesn't write a grant. The chair may write a grant for his own research, heck sometimes collaborations between PI's occur, but grants are given out to individual researchers. To say otherwise is just ignorant.

Here' s a hint on one way you can tell .....

Go to this site http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/

Then look under Awardee information. See the part where is says "principal investigator" That's there because a PI writes the freaking grant for their research.

Wait, so now I'm confused. The money DOES goes to the department to dole out, but this doesn't count in your mind as federal funding of the university because an individual filled out the actual form? Perhaps you should write a grant to study how an abstract concept like a "department" could fill out a form on the web. I'd also love to hear your theories on why the indirect costs (which go to pay for the school's facilities and administrative costs) associated with a PI's proposal do not constitute federal funding of the school.

As for table A-9, here's a small hint: when a table or figure number in a technical document starts with a letter, that's usually an indication that it's in the section of the document titled with that letter, which would be Appendix A in this case. Since I'm guessing you still won't find it, the answer is that over $16B in NSF funding went directly to private universities for them to pass on to subrecipients.

[jcarter7669]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

Universities also apply directly for funding, so your statement is flat wrong. Try actually reading the link I sent - table A-9 specifically addresses money that goes directly to a school and is then passed down to "subrecipients," who are individual professors, etc.

I suppose your next argument will be that if a physics department applies for a grant, that doesn't count either, since the physics department is not "the university."

I'm done slicing that onion.

There is no table A-9 and you clearly do not understand how funding works. I used to think Cornell was a good school but I now have determined that all 5 of the Cornell students I know are unbelievably ignorant.

Do you think NSF is going to write a check for 500K to an individual person to dole out over the course of the grant? No they send it to the school, and give the researcher a budget account to draw from.

And the physics dept writing a grant? Whisky-tango-foxtrot is wrong with you? Of course the Physics Dept. doesn't write a grant. The chair may write a grant for his own research, heck sometimes collaborations between PI's occur, but grants are given out to individual researchers. To say otherwise is just ignorant.

Here' s a hint on one way you can tell .....

Go to this site http://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/

Then look under Awardee information. See the part where is says "principal investigator" That's there because a PI writes the freaking grant for their research.

[LynahFan]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

NSF funding goes to investigator's that submit grants. Not to Universities.

Keep trying.

Universities also apply directly for funding, so your statement is flat wrong. Try actually reading the link I sent - table A-9 specifically addresses money that goes directly to a school and is then passed down to "subrecipients," who are individual professors, etc.

I suppose your next argument will be that if a physics department applies for a grant, that doesn't count either, since the physics department is not "the university."

I'm done slicing that onion.

[jcarter7669]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

When I got my Financial Aid package, it included a Stafford Loan, which is a federal loan - but it was given to the school to award, and given directly to the school. I never saw the money. I think that counts as the school receiving funding, even if it is just specifically for loans.

For your tuition, that you will payback???

Technically you could demand the money to which BU would cut you a check and send you a bill.

How can you not see the difference between a school receiving public funds and a student using federal backed loans (note, the federal gov't doesnt give out loans until next year. Stafford is a loan program not a loan)??

[jcarter7669]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

As far as I know, Title IX does not apply just because individual students have federal loans - its applicability means that the school itself DOES directly receive federal funding.

Edit: here's where NSF's research funding goes. Loads of private schools on those lists...

NSF funding goes to investigator's that submit grants. Not to Universities.

Keep trying.

[BUT09]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

That's absurd. What that says is if a school accepts a student who took out a federal back student loan then they have to abide by that rule. A loan is not receiving public funds, nor is a grant. The money is given to the student not the school, and is in the case of a loan paid back with a net of ZERO public monies going to any school public or private.

Again, is their evidence that a private school receives funding from the public, and I will specify for clarity, directly?

When I got my Financial Aid package, it included a Stafford Loan, which is a federal loan - but it was given to the school to award, and given directly to the school. I never saw the money. I think that counts as the school receiving funding, even if it is just specifically for loans.

[LynahFan]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

That's absurd. What that says is if a school accepts a student who took out a federal back student loan then they have to abide by that rule. A loan is not receiving public funds, nor is a grant. The money is given to the student not the school, and is in the case of a loan paid back with a net of ZERO public monies going to any school public or private.

Again, is their evidence that a private school receives funding from the public, and I will specify for clarity, directly?

As far as I know, Title IX does not apply just because individual students have federal loans - its applicability means that the school itself DOES directly receive federal funding.

Edit: here's where NSF's research funding goes. Loads of private schools on those lists...

[jcarter7669]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

Are you kidding? How about: the fact that schools have to abide by Title IX in sports is an indicator that they receive government funding. Title IX (in its entirety) reads, "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

All D-1 hockey schools have to abide by Title IX; therefore, all D-1 hockey schools receive Federal funding. QED.

If you had a truly private university that did not accept federal government funding, you could field 10 football teams and nothing else.

That's absurd. What that says is if a school accepts a student who took out a federal back student loan then they have to abide by that rule. A loan is not receiving public funds, nor is a grant. The money is given to the student not the school, and is in the case of a loan paid back with a net of ZERO public monies going to any school public or private.

Again, is their evidence that a private school receives funding from the public, and I will specify for clarity, directly?

[LynahFan]

Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

I don't suppose you have any evidence for this statement?

Are you kidding? How about: the fact that schools have to abide by Title IX in sports is an indicator that they receive government funding. Title IX (in its entirety) reads, "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

All D-1 hockey schools have to abide by Title IX; therefore, all D-1 hockey schools receive Federal funding. QED.

If you had a truly private university that did not accept federal government funding, you could field 10 football teams and nothing else.