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Show me the money--Players turning pro

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  • leswp1
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
    No, no - this is the INTERNET, silly. Any semblance of useful information is purely unintentional...

    Leave a comment:


  • jcarter7669
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
    Oh, snap.

    The school can let you take the money with you, but they don't have to, since it's their money.
    http://www.nsf.gov/publications/pub_...sp?ods_key=aag

    No, not exactly. But listen I'm done with this conversation. You win, I don't care. If you want to be ignorant of whether a private college is given public money go ahead, be ignorant. That's your choice.

    BY the way if you look at Chapter 2 this is discussed in detail.
    Should a PI leave the school has 3 choices :
    A.) close the grant
    B.) let the grant go with the professor
    C.) NOMINATE another PI to take over.

    The grant was written and granted based on the PI's experience, which is why C is never used because NSF will turn it down. Since it would be spiteful to close the grant for no reason that's not done either. So B is the way it works. But you are correct in that it really isn't the professors, but wrong, in that it's not the schools. Just FYI incase you choose to educate yourself about what you speak off.

    Good Day.

    Leave a comment:


  • LynahFan
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
    Is this the place you come to find out who signed?

    :checks title of thread:

    thought I was in the wrong place....
    No, no - this is the INTERNET, silly. Any semblance of useful information is purely unintentional...

    Leave a comment:


  • leswp1
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Is this the place you come to find out who signed?

    :checks title of thread:

    thought I was in the wrong place....

    Leave a comment:


  • LynahFan
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by jcarter7669 View Post
    Let's try it this way, maybe you will see my point more clearly. If not I don't care, I'm done with this pointless exercise in futility.

    - you are a researcher at University X and you receive a 5 year award from NSF
    - after year 2, you apply for and are offered a position at University Y

    For Year 3-5 does your NSF grant go to University Y or University X?

    If it goes to University X then funding would be to the University.
    If it goes to University Y then funding would be to the researcher.

    Good luck.
    Oh, snap.

    The school can let you take the money with you, but they don't have to, since it's their money.

    Leave a comment:


  • ts8801
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by Osorojo View Post
    How so cynical? The primary mission of junior hockey programs is to develop professional hockey players. Junior hockey does not recruit indifferent, untalented hockey players nor offer recruits college courses. Those are facts, and facts are neither cynical nor benevolent.

    Applying precisely the same logic to colleges and universities: The primary mission of colleges and universities is to develop educated graduates. (fact)
    No valid arguement has appeared to suggest colleges and universities should compromise their academic goal by permitting athletic potential and performance to supercede academic potential and performance. This conclusion seems much more realistic than cynical. We don't always like the truth, but it's suicidal to deny it.
    K this is where your living in la la land. You are assuming that because the kids leave early and do not graduate they are indifferent and untalented. The kids that play college hockey have met the academic requirements to attend that university. In theory a kid could have a 4.0 gpa and leave early. They leave early because a better opportunity had presented itself. If someone walked up to you and said they would pay you a 1 mil a year to leave your job and come work for their company you would do so.

    Your argument fails because you assume the kids graduating early didn't value and never wanted to finish their degree. They very well could have planned on staying all 4 years and completing their degree, until that team representative called them and offered them 300K+ a year to play hockey with the potential of making much, much more.

    and btw your wonderful private school degree failed you also as you cannot spell argument.

    Leave a comment:


  • jcarter7669
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
    "hey, I've got a great research proposal, and I'm not currently affiliated with any university, but just go ahead commit to giving me the money and I'll go find a university where I can do the research and you can give it to me once I get there,"

    Oh and just FYI, NSF doesn't look at or determine funding for individual researchers. There is a committee of other researchers that decide funding. Your phone conversation would be short, because NSF would tell you to stop bothering them.

    Leave a comment:


  • jcarter7669
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
    So which case does research funding fall into? If you call up the NSF and say, "hey, I've got a great research proposal, and I'm not currently affiliated with any university, but just go ahead commit to giving me the money and I'll go find a university where I can do the research and you can give it to me once I get there," I think that would be a rather short conversation. The fact is that professors at private universities apply for public funding as agents of the universities they represent, not as truly independent entities.
    Let's try it this way, maybe you will see my point more clearly. If not I don't care, I'm done with this pointless exercise in futility.

    - you are a researcher at University X and you receive a 5 year award from NSF
    - after year 2, you apply for and are offered a position at University Y

    For Year 3-5 does your NSF grant go to University Y or University X?

    If it goes to University X then funding would be to the University.
    If it goes to University Y then funding would be to the researcher.

    Good luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • LynahFan
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by jcarter7669 View Post
    Its not semanitics, its a fundamental difference.

    Case A.)

    Gov't awards a student a grant to go to school, ANY SCHOOL he chooses. He chooses a college money is sent. If he doesn't go to that school the money does not.

    Case B.) Vermont Legislature appropriates x million dollars to go to UVM. Kid X doesn't go. Money still goes to UVM.
    So which case does research funding fall into? If you call up the NSF and say, "hey, I've got a great research proposal, and I'm not currently affiliated with any university, but just go ahead commit to giving me the money and I'll go find a university where I can do the research and you can give it to me once I get there," I think that would be a rather short conversation. The fact is that professors at private universities apply for public funding as agents of the universities they represent, not as truly independent entities.

    Leave a comment:


  • jcarter7669
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Its not semanitics, its a fundamental difference.

    Case A.)

    Gov't awards a student a grant to go to school, ANY SCHOOL he chooses. He chooses a college money is sent. If he doesn't go to that school the money does not.

    Case B.) Vermont Legislature appropriates x million dollars to go to UVM. Kid X doesn't go. Money still goes to UVM.


    The idea that because a student or investigator gets money from the gov't and then uses that to pay expenses at a school and therefore the school gets public funding is absurd.

    Next you will be saying we all are supporters of communism, since we pay taxes to Uncle Sam who uses it to pay debt to communist China.

    Osro
    "You stubbornly insist that money paid for a service does not constitute support of the service provider?"

    That's not what I'm saying at all, and since you still havn't figured it out I must be insane to try and do so again.

    Money provided for a service constitutes support for the service provider. Its the question of whose money it is. When the bank loans you money to buy a new car and transfers it directly to the dealer does that mean you never bought the car and the bank did? Does the Bank register the car? Does the Bank insure the car? No you do because YOU BOUGHT THE CAR. Not the bank that loaned you the money.

    Leave a comment:


  • Osorojo
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by jcarter7669 View Post
    FOR YOUR TUITION. YOU GOT A SERVICE FOR IT.

    That's different then when a state college is given money directly from the state budget.

    Gawd, I give up. In 10 years remind me to tell my kids not to apply to Cornell.
    jcarter:

    Thanks for reminding me "YOU GOT A SERVICE FOR IT" (the money government paid my alma mater for my tuition), but I have never forgotten this fact. You stubbornly insist that money paid for a service does not constitute support of the service provider?! If true, this insight will certainly shock and astonish every businessman and capitalist alive. You should publish your unique economic theory. The Nobel Committee might even show their lack of support for you by awarding you prize money.
    I applaud your decision to keep your offspring away from Cornell.

    Leave a comment:


  • LynahFan
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by jcarter7669 View Post
    The precentage varies greatly, but the University just doesn't get that money for nothing.
    This whole time, though, you've been arguing that the University doesn't get public money, period. Now you're saying that they DO get public money, but it doesn't count because it's a payment for a service.

    Seems like we all understand where the money comes from, who gets it, and who spends it for what, so now it's just a semantics argument of whether that all adds up to "public money going to private universities." For me, it boils down to what I posted before - if the NSF (and other federal agencies) stopped handing out research money tomorrow, the budget of essentially every single private university in the US would immediately shrink and they would lay off faculty and staff. That is reality - everything else is handwaving and smoke-n-mirrors.

    Leave a comment:


  • jcarter7669
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by unh_hockey View Post
    I have been the PI to several federal grants, and if you are submitting with a letter of commitment from the U, you need to factor in their cut. For NSF if a professor within the system was applying ( as was the case during my graduate years), the university gets 60% right off the bat. Most NSF grants are geared towards research efforts, ergo universities. Even if a PI such as myself who represent a private entity or a not-for profit , the U will still get their cut. its like the mafia.

    College is a business.

    The precentage varies greatly, but the University just doesn't get that money for nothing. It is for secondaries no? Your lab, lights, electricity, water, building maintanence, etc? No different then the feds giving a kid a pell grant that goes directly to the school. The gov't is giving YOU the money to pay secondaries to the school. Just like the gov't gives the kid a pell grant to give to the school.


    If NSF didn't give you a grant, do you still have to pay secondaries...**** skippy
    If Uncle Sam doesn't give a kid a pell grant does he still have to pay tuition....you bet.

    If nothing at all happens does New Hampshire still give UNH a buget line item. Yup.


    Again, I will note, I am not talking about nor have mentioned, other then to respond, title IX. I was responding to Osorojr's assertion that private universities receive public funding.
    Originally posted by Osorojo View Post

    Please note: Junior hockey programs waste their own money when they make foolish decisions; nearly every college receives substantial public funding, so guess whose money they waste when they make foolish decisions?

    Just how ARE things in la-la land?
    My point is merely that a private institution when the make a foolish decisions, like admitting OsroJr, waste their own money, not taxpayer money. The assertion is false, and that is all I'm saying. Title IX only came into this due to the logic that if a college is subject to title IX then they have to receive public money.


    For those interested in Title IX, there are two qualifiers as to why a college like Cornell for example is subject to Title IX. The first is that in fact student financial aid is a qualifier, even though it is noted that the it is an attenuated relationship and secondly, the NCAA is subject to Title IX and any school participating in NCAA athletics is subject to their by-laws regardless of public funds.

    You can read the entire SCOTUS decision but here is the excerpt regarding student aid.

    "In Grove City College v. Bell, 465 U.S. 555, 563—570 (1984), we held that a college receives federal financial assistance when it enrolls students who receive federal funds earmarked for educational expenses."

    Leave a comment:


  • jcarter7669
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by Osorojo View Post
    I attended a private, endowed university on a New York State Regents College Scholarship. The state did not deposit the money in my account, but in the university's account. The university spent it.

    FOR YOUR TUITION. YOU GOT A SERVICE FOR IT.

    That's different then when a state college is given money directly from the state budget.

    Gawd, I give up. In 10 years remind me to tell my kids not to apply to Cornell.

    Leave a comment:


  • unh_hockey
    replied
    Re: Show me the money--Players turning pro

    Originally posted by jcarter7669 View Post
    NSF funding goes to investigator's that submit grants. Not to Universities.

    Keep trying.
    I have been the PI to several federal grants, and if you are submitting with a letter of commitment from the U, you need to factor in their cut. For NSF if a professor within the system was applying ( as was the case during my graduate years), the university gets 60% right off the bat. Most NSF grants are geared towards research efforts, ergo universities. Even if a PI such as myself who represent a private entity or a not-for profit , the U will still get their cut. its like the mafia.

    College is a business.

    Leave a comment:

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