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Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

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  • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

    Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
    There's no chip. Turns out I was right and the effort was in fact much better on Saturday.

    How is your arm chair analysis any more valid than anyone else's? You weren't even watching the game on Saturday. In addition, you weren't just stating your opinion, you were telling several of us that we were wrong and somehow amateurish in our thoughts.

    Sometimes a team plays their best and gets beat. You can see it happening and you can sometimes pin that on a goalie as standing on his head.

    That wasn't the case against St. Cloud just as it wasn't the case many times this season. This is an acknowledged and known flaw of this current Badger team and has been all year.

    Hopefully they will find a way to bring it in the next however many or they will live with regret.
    You seem to be engaged in the idea that there is a right opinion and a wrong opinion. I don't know why you'd think that - you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

    My original comments were in reference to the uber-subjective fan message board comments about 'effort' or 'playing with a chip on your shoulder' and a whole host of others that you see in just about every sport - whether it's playing with 'swagger' or whatever the word of the day happens to be. The pattern amongst fans is all too obvious - team wins, and they played hard. Team loses and they didn't put in the 'effort.'

    The entirety of this line of thinking is subjective. I would further argue (as I did by calling 99% of it bull****) that it's not usually an assessment of the team's actual play, but rather an analysis that correlates with the results on the scoreboard rather than a qualitative analysis of the play on the ice/field/court.

    You ask how my armchair analysis is better than anyone else's - it's not, nor did I ever assert that it was. What I am saying is that when people make comments about nebulous and subjective issues like 'effort' or 'heart,' I'm sure not likely to be convinced by those arguments.

    So, I present my opinion, obviously in disagreement with several posters on the board, and just because I disagree you think I'm asserting my superiority? Obviously I like my own opinion - otherwise I wouldn't have expressed it. That's what boards like this are for.

    I personally don't like comments that rely on 'effort' as the explaining factor. I don't like them because I think they are overused and usually wrong. That's why I posited the hypothetical about popping a few past Lee early on in the game. It's also interesting that you mention this is a long term pattern with this team, because I would agree - except that I've seen the same pattern of analysis with this year's Badger basketball team, too - and the football team - and just about every other sports team out there.

    So, instead we have a discussion about human nature and sports - both on the part of the players out there competing and the fans in the stands offering their analysis.

    If you want to convince me, tell me where the players messed up in their execution. You can demonstrate that to me. However, if you're going to give me some subjective crap about 'effort' or 'swagger' or 'playing with a chip on your shoulder,' I'm not likely to be convinced.

    Hell, I remember watching Georgetown get beat in the basketball tournament this past weekend, marveling at the obvious effort they were putting out there. Their execution stunk, however, and that was the reason for the loss. But they were trying hard.
    "...the great state University of Wisconsin should ever encourage that continual and fearless sifting and winnowing by which alone the truth can be found."

    Wisconsin '05 Michigan '07

    http://noalibisnoregrets.blogspot.com/

    my other blog

    Comment


    • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

      Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
      I got great seats Friday night, in the front row....of the oldest's son play. I should get home around 8:30.

      So I tried to get out of going. I told my son I've loved UW Hockey longer than him (1985 vs 1996), so he's out of luck, I'm staying home to watch it. He is a huge UW fan himself, I thought I'd get the pass from him on it, but he told me I was not a good father. My wife overheard us, and as she was going to say something, I blurted out "I've also loved UW Hockey longer than you too (1985 vs 1987)" and, well, at least I'm still married. And I wasn't planning on having any more kids anyway.......

      LET'S GO RED!!!!!!!!!
      Go to your son's game. If UW wins, there will be another game. If they lose, you won't have missed anything.

      I was coaching my son's Peewee game during the Gold Medal Olympic game and there was no place I'd have rather been.

      Comment


      • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

        Originally posted by blockski View Post
        You seem to be engaged in the idea that there is a right opinion and a wrong opinion. I don't know why you'd think that - you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

        So, I present my opinion, obviously in disagreement with several posters on the board, and just because I disagree you think I'm asserting my superiority? Obviously I like my own opinion - otherwise I wouldn't have expressed it. That's what boards like this are for.
        You ARE entitled to your opinion, but your blanket statement that 99% of lack of effort criticisms are rubbish and the posters who say such things are typical of message board armchair quarterbacks is what I take issue with.

        Sometimes teams don't play their best, give their best effort or have the proper focus to perform at their best. Sometimes they are in fact disinterested and need a chip on their shoulder or whatever others say.

        When posters see this all season and point it out when it happens in a playoff game, it's not simply reactionary, it's an opinion based on past experience from this season where this UW team, although very talented, has underperformed or underachieved. Many times this season they have not played to their potential.

        Go ahead and disagree, but don't dismiss a valid criticism simply because it's a common one on other boards during other seasons.

        Comment


        • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

          Originally posted by Puck Swami View Post
          DU mailed in a poor performance as a team, Chevy included. Of the six periods they played, only perhaps two were acceptable.

          Maybe they were tired. Maybe they didn't have much to play for. Maybe its because they don't have more than a handful of fans in St. Paul every year. Whatever - they mailed it in and took the weekend off. Shameful, really.

          I expect much more focus this week in the NCAAs. If they don't play better, I'd be shocked.
          I commented on Cheverie because the only two times I'd seen him this season, when Denver was in Madison, he was superb. Even though he didn't play well against UND, I figured Wisconsin was toast in the consolation game.

          Comment


          • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

            Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
            You ARE entitled to your opinion, but your blanket statement that 99% of lack of effort criticisms are rubbish and the posters who say such things are typical of message board armchair quarterbacks is what I take issue with.

            Sometimes teams don't play their best, give their best effort or have the proper focus to perform at their best. Sometimes they are in fact disinterested and need a chip on their shoulder or whatever others say.

            When posters see this all season and point it out when it happens in a playoff game, it's not simply reactionary, it's an opinion based on past experience from this season where this UW team, although very talented, has underperformed or underachieved. Many times this season they have not played to their potential.

            Go ahead and disagree, but don't dismiss a valid criticism simply because it's a common one on other boards during other seasons.
            If you want to accuse me of a little hyperbole, that's fine. 99% might be overstating it. But then again, 65% of all statistics are made up right on the spot. Everyone knows that.

            My issue is that the 'effort' criticism is the default one, and all too often is levied against a team without much thought. I certainly didn't think UW's effort against SCSU was the primary reason for the loss. A little bad luck prevents a few close shots from going in - those are the breaks sometimes.

            I also don't think - especially at the college level - that effort and performance are synonymous. That's why I posited the hypothetical - if the result had been different with the same quality of skating, would posters be here complaining about the level of effort?

            I've already said why I don't think it's usually a very valid criticism. I'll add that I don't like it on a personal level because I think the inaccuracy is a disservice to the players who generally do go out and give a great effort night in and night out. Again, that effort doesn't always translate into perfect execution. As I noted with Georgetown's basketball team, effort can easily translate into errors and mistakes, too.
            "...the great state University of Wisconsin should ever encourage that continual and fearless sifting and winnowing by which alone the truth can be found."

            Wisconsin '05 Michigan '07

            http://noalibisnoregrets.blogspot.com/

            my other blog

            Comment


            • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

              Man on man. Can I make the trek to the twin cities to see the boys 3 out of 4 weekend?

              Comment


              • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                Originally posted by Chuck Schwartz View Post
                Man on man. Can I make the trek to the twin cities to see the boys 3 out of 4 weekend?
                Of course you can. You only go around once.

                Comment


                • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                  Originally posted by blockski View Post
                  If you want to accuse me of a little hyperbole, that's fine. 99% might be overstating it. But then again, 65% of all statistics are made up right on the spot. Everyone knows that.

                  My issue is that the 'effort' criticism is the default one, and all too often is levied against a team without much thought. I certainly didn't think UW's effort against SCSU was the primary reason for the loss. A little bad luck prevents a few close shots from going in - those are the breaks sometimes.

                  I also don't think - especially at the college level - that effort and performance are synonymous. That's why I posited the hypothetical - if the result had been different with the same quality of skating, would posters be here complaining about the level of effort?

                  I've already said why I don't think it's usually a very valid criticism. I'll add that I don't like it on a personal level because I think the inaccuracy is a disservice to the players who generally do go out and give a great effort night in and night out. Again, that effort doesn't always translate into perfect execution. As I noted with Georgetown's basketball team, effort can easily translate into errors and mistakes, too.
                  I agree, you can see from watching them that they were giving the effort, regardless of the execution or the results from the effort.

                  UW made a number of mistakes in the semi final game:
                  taking to many penalties
                  looking totally confused by SCSU's PK
                  Inability to efficiently transition the puck out of the offensive zone

                  All the effort in the world isn't going to fix those problems, in fact those problems likely were exacerbated by the players trying to compensate for a lack of execution by giving a little extra bit of effort and do do much and force low probability/high reward options rather then stay withing the system.

                  Frustration may have contributed to some poor decision making, but I never questioned that the team was playing with and giving there best effort.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                    It might just be a matter of semantics. If we equate "effort" to "trying hard" than I would agree with blockski in that it's seldom a case of the team not "trying hard." If players aren't mentally focused and confident, then it often gives the appearance that there isn't a maximum effort being put forth. The reality often is that a lack of focus and awareness leads to being slow to react, not jumping in when appropriate, etc. Missing a pass, making a turnover, having the opponent step up and make a great play often exacerbates the situation. At the higher levels of athletics the difference in skills between teams often isn't that great. It's interesting to see how the mental aspects of the game play such a big role. And how those mental aspects can make one team appear to be skating in mud while the other is gliding on teflon.
                    Originally posted by WiscTJK
                    I'm with Wisko and Tim.
                    Originally posted by Timothy A
                    Other than Wisko McBadgerton and Badger Bob, who is universally loved by all?

                    Comment


                    • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                      Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
                      Go to your son's game. If UW wins, there will be another game. If they lose, you won't have missed anything.

                      I was coaching my son's Peewee game during the Gold Medal Olympic game and there was no place I'd have rather been.
                      The Gold Medal Game isn't UW hockey.

                      It's a play ,er, musical, not a game. That changes everything, right? It's one thing if it's for a hockey game. But a musical? 8th grade?

                      Obviously I'm going to his musical. I have a history of missing big games. I missed the 5 first periods of the UW/Cornell triple ot game, got back from the Fireside (another play ) in time to see the winner. Missed the 1990 Championship Game, I was driving back from Kansas with my girlfriend (now wife) and her parents. I tried like heck to find the game on the radio in Northern Iowa. I was getting mad. My parents taped it for me, so that was cool.

                      I'll miss the first period, but that will be it. It could be a lot worse. I could not have ESPN U. Worse yet, I could be stuck in Kansas with no ESPN U.
                      Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
                      "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
                      Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

                      Comment


                      • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                        Go to the play. Just keep an eye on the orchestra pit. If we expect to compete for national championships every year, we're going to need to continue to field a top flight band. We're graduating some strong players and we need to keep filling the pipeline. National championship hockey bands don't just grow on trees, you know. We all have to do our part.
                        Originally posted by WiscTJK
                        I'm with Wisko and Tim.
                        Originally posted by Timothy A
                        Other than Wisko McBadgerton and Badger Bob, who is universally loved by all?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                          Re: tickets, I'm going with my mom, bigus, and a friend of ours- Mom bought tickets online this afternoon and got 4 in club level row 4 (in a corner, but still, not in the top level) so there would appear to be plenty left.

                          Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                          Bars: They are your friend.
                          They're only as friendly as ESPNU itself.* There was one series at CC, I think in that 05-06 season, where the Saturday game was randomly on ESPNU, I was watching in a bar, but ESPNU's ****ed feed kept going out... during the 5 minute major powerplay where the Badgers scored several goals! Seriously, feed went out, blipped back with another goal or two, blipped out again, and then the pp was over and UW was up by about four or five goals. So, I distrust ESPNU.**

                          Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                          I got great seats Friday night, in the front row....of the oldest's son play. I should get home around 8:30.
                          See: reasons not to have children.

                          *Assuming watching hockey is the priority; some people may find the beer to make up for inadequate coverage and/or poor results.
                          **Yes, I hold a grudge from one game several years ago. Just don't get me started on BTN and that one press conference, or Dish Network's occasional issues with alternate FSNs!

                          ETA: one more random bit of vaguely play-off related superstition... if you give any credit to the fear/superstition that hockey and basketball never do well on the same day, at least we won't have that worry this weekend, right?!

                          ETA one more time: Timothy, you've got more than one kid, yes? If you're leaving one or more home with a babysitter, teach 'em to text you score updates! Even if the kid requires SOME family support in his performance, surely he knows that for the good of the family someone must stay home and send text updates to others. Or get a fancy phone to check score updates during the game, whichever... not having the fancy phone myself, my first thought is always "who can text me?"
                          Last edited by The Hallucination; 03-22-2010, 05:59 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                            Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                            Anyone getting tickets through the UW AD? Where are those seats?
                            A related question: Is the band going to be in the same place as the Final Five? My regional seats are in the club level section right below where they were.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                              Originally posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
                              Go to the play. Just keep an eye on the orchestra pit. If we expect to compete for national championships every year, we're going to need to continue to field a top flight band. We're graduating some strong players and we need to keep filling the pipeline. National championship hockey bands don't just grow on trees, you know. We all have to do our part.
                              Proper voice training can be a huge advantage in effectively heckling opposing goalies as well.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Wisconsin Hockey Part 3: Just win, baby!

                                Originally posted by Chuck Schwartz View Post
                                Man on man. Can I make the trek to the twin cities to see the boys 3 out of 4 weekend?
                                For once, the governor's idea of a high speed rail line makes useful sense. Catch a train ride and hang out in the club car!

                                Comment

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