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Wisconsin Hockey 21-22: Your Guess Is As Good As Mine

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  • Originally posted by Almington View Post

    When people talk about returning to the 80s and 90s for Badger Hockey it is all about being a relevant program on the national stage on a yearly basis. While each fan has different ideas on how to achieve that, the end goal is the same: for the program to win more than lose, be competitive in every game, and compete for conference titles and playoff championships. In other words be a perennial top 20 team, some years will be better, some will be worse. The fact that this program is so far away from that level at this point, has been for years now, AND (worst of all) it appears that the AD isn't willing/able to make the hard decisions to try and change that is what have pushed so many fans over the edge towards apathy.

    Fandom loss is generally a slow slide towards apathy because apathy is what's left when the emotion is gone. When people are frustrated or angry, it is because they care, they have feelings about wanting to make things better. Frustration is just short term disappointment with hope for the future, anger is medium term disappointment that things are not improving fast enough, depression is long term disappointment absent of belief that things will change/improve. The number of long term fans who are at the depressed stage about the state of Badger Hockey should concern the Athletic Department, because those are the fans who don't just say they are going to dump their tickets (Angry fans say they will, but typically keep them because of the emotional connection they have) but actually do and they are one step away from casual fandom and/or apathy (the difference is how much effort goes into be a fan: local fans can become casual fans, long distant fans are generally lost for good)

    What the Athletic Department wants is a Men's Program that can cover the costs of both the Men's and Woman's hockey programs with the least drama created and effort expended by the department admin. If the Men's program can funnel a little extra money into the Badger fund or other department operating expenses that's just a bonus. The massive increase in media rights revenue has completely changed the importance of the hockey program in the grand scheme of the UW athletic department budget.
    Great insights here, particularly about fandom loss. I didn't really think about the media rights, and that does make a lot of sense. It also explains less drastic / no coaching changes, as that dept. funding model has changed.
    gwhinwi's: Wisconsin Badgers Recruiting Spreadsheet & Individual Face-Off Statistics

    EODS: De-Commit / Non-Pro Early Departure List

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Almington View Post

      When people talk about returning to the 80s and 90s for Badger Hockey it is all about being a relevant program on the national stage on a yearly basis. While each fan has different ideas on how to achieve that, the end goal is the same: for the program to win more than lose, be competitive in every game, and compete for conference titles and playoff championships. In other words be a perennial top 20 team, some years will be better, some will be worse. The fact that this program is so far away from that level at this point, has been for years now, AND (worst of all) it appears that the AD isn't willing/able to make the hard decisions to try and change that is what have pushed so many fans over the edge towards apathy.

      Fandom loss is generally a slow slide towards apathy because apathy is what's left when the emotion is gone. When people are frustrated or angry, it is because they care, they have feelings about wanting to make things better. Frustration is just short term disappointment with hope for the future, anger is medium term disappointment that things are not improving fast enough, depression is long term disappointment absent of belief that things will change/improve. The number of long term fans who are at the depressed stage about the state of Badger Hockey should concern the Athletic Department, because those are the fans who don't just say they are going to dump their tickets (Angry fans say they will, but typically keep them because of the emotional connection they have) but actually do and they are one step away from casual fandom and/or apathy (the difference is how much effort goes into be a fan: local fans can become casual fans, long distant fans are generally lost for good)

      What the Athletic Department wants is a Men's Program that can cover the costs of both the Men's and Woman's hockey programs with the least drama created and effort expended by the department admin. If the Men's program can funnel a little extra money into the Badger fund or other department operating expenses that's just a bonus. The massive increase in media rights revenue has completely changed the importance of the hockey program in the grand scheme of the UW athletic department budget.
      Spot on! When I bring up 1994 or 1995 as the last year Wisconsin was a national power (meaning as you describe a year in and year out top 20 team and imo more often than not a frozen four threat) I don’t mean let’s click our heels together and return to straight up run n’ gun no defense hockey. That went extinct when the trap was introduced in the NHL and trickled down to NCAA along with diligent film analysis etc.

      Wisconsin hockey was about winning and gunning for national titles. When I was 13, 14, 15 watching Paul Ranheim, Scott Mellanby, Mike Richter, Tony Granato, etc., the NHL was nowhere near my radar and still generally isn’t. It’s cool to see the list of players who made it and congrats to them but winning as a badger is what matters to me.

      So I understand that the 80’s and 90’s aren’t coming back in terms of style of play but it damn sure better come back re number of wins, %of wins and NCAA title game appearances.

      also, Alms, your analysis re emotions and apathy is spot on!
      Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


      "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

      "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

      Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by sunprairie View Post
        No one is happy with the results of this season - the players, coaches or us. But, when I see the video that UW put out after the season, I see a coach recognizing that and presenting a plan to try to fix it. As a fan, that’s what I want to see. And I am excited for it. That’s my choice.
        I have always been Dr. Positive. I almost bought season tickets for this year. That's how excited I was for the season. As the season wore on, it was apparent that the coaches failed to develop players, old habits came back. His treatment of goalies is criminal. TG has had 6 years to figure it out. Now he gets another 2-3 years to try flip the roster to older players? I firmly believe that with a new staff these players can play winning hockey. TG was a crappy coach in the NHL, why would he be a good coach in college? We were hoping he could be, but it's obvious he isn't. I guess we were all fools to think he would do any better here.

        I get that 1990 is never coming back. I don't care if they ever fill the Kohl again. Why can't WI be MI, MN, UND, UMD, DU, St. Cloud, or Mankato in terms of success in the 2020's? All I'm asking for is to see UW in the NCAA's 3 out of every 4 years. If you get in, anything can happen.
        Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
        "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
        Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

        Comment


        • Took in my first pro game today at the Xcel Energy Center. Glad to see my Minnesota Wild beat the Chicago Blackhawks. Honestly, just glad a game I attended resulted in a W for my hockey team. It's been a long time...

          Comment


          • It was SO COOL to hear from Hammy and Almington.
            USCHO Wisconsin thread G.O.A.T.S.


            I'm still lurking "aboot", but not nearly as positive as in the past. Tim mentioned he being Dr. Positive; I always was until I continued to get shanked in the asss the past 5 years.

            When we were getting beat, all I had to do was sprint down to the ice-level beer garden, guzzle "t'ree 'r four" and we'd win. OR if I was too lazy, I just hit the closest concession stand for a LARGE Baby Ruth, guaranteed win. Or at home, put a 5 dollar bill on top of the TV set to buy a goal.

            Today, however, I could hammer a keg, eat Baby Ruth's off of the production line, and set a Brink's truck on top of the TV and it wouldn't do schitt.
            Now, I just can't see any reason to be positive. The future looks bleaker than ever.

            Thrilled to hear from you guys, Hammy & Almington.

            BUT, I still travel to see the Avalanche with my former Badger hockey allowance from Mrs. MCR!
            Last edited by MadCityRich; 03-19-2022, 10:53 PM.
            "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser." Vince Lombardi

            "License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations. Man; free to kill gophers at will. To kill, you must know your enemy, and in this case, my enemy is a varmint....and a varmint will never quit...ever. They're like Viet Cong...Varmint Cong, so you have to fall back on superior intelligence and superior firepower...and that's all she wrote. Au revoir, gopher." Karl Spackler 1980

            Comment


            • Originally posted by sunprairie View Post
              I&#8217

              No one is happy with the results of this season - the players, coaches or us. But, when I see the video that UW put out after the season, I see a coach recognizing that and presenting a plan to try to fix it. As a fan, that’s what I want to see. And I am excited for it. That’s my choice.


              But sitting and complaining that a 2022 college hockey team is not ever going to be the kind of team the Badgers were in the college hockey environment of the 1990s or earlier is doing no good. It’s not going to happen.
              Are you high?

              We just want the ****ing program to win a playoff game (Havent done that in like 8 or 9 years). And not look like losers. And have the games be fun again. And maybe even go to a final four!!!! Sometime... again.

              What is doing no good...is losers and apologists like you enabling Granato, Jason King, Macintosh, and the Athletic Department to continue this pathetic crap show go on.

              Last edited by druzy192; 03-20-2022, 03:45 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Timothy A View Post

                I get that 1990 is never coming back. I don't care if they ever fill the Kohl again.
                This is the problem. We should fill the kohl again. This loser pathetic mentality has spread across the UW Badger hockey program. And I don't mean you specifically Timothy. But I mean what the hell is going on around here? Are we shooting for participation trophies and having a nice coach?

                I'm just flabbergasted with the amount of non championship mentality surrounding the hockey program. I blame the Athletic Department. Granato is out of his depth and can't do any better.

                Comment


                • This was kind a cool to see. Next year's recruit beating up on an Ahcan (yes that Ahcan family) - https://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/n264474

                  Looks like he was channeling a little Chuck Norris - He hit him with so many rights he was begging for a left.

                  Comment


                  • I know I shouldn't let Posick's Badger Hockey Digest year-end "interview" of TG bother me, but it does. I get it's a promo/propaganda, but I still feel insulted by it, like "they" are trying to gaslight me or something. Convince me this team is just a few lucky bounces, one less kid missing a game due to COVID, and a couple of players being a few months older from being a Big Ten Champ and Frozen Four contender. If you care enough about Badger hockey to search out and watch the Badger Hockey Digest, then it stands to reason you've also watched a few Badger hockey games this season, and if you watched a few Badger hockey games this season then you know this show has little basis in reality, so I'm not sure who the target audience for this video is?? But every team probably does something like this, so it shouldn't bother me ... but it does.

                    Let's break this video down:

                    TG repeatedly attempted to convey the idea that the team "grew a lot" and was figuring things out towards the end of the season. No idea what he saw on the ice that made him think that. This team ended the regular season by getting swept by MN 13-0. They were 1-9 over the final 10 regular season games and got outscored 51 to 18. This team was getting worse, not better, over the final 1/3 of the season.

                    Both Posick and TG talked about the Notre Dame playoff series like the Badgers won it.?. The Badgers lost the series, they gave up 50 shots in their one win, and they did not look like the better team for much of the series. The way they were talking about the Badgers kind of reminded me of how TV announcers talk about an overmatched FCS football school playing Ohio State - they heap praise on the team for keeping the score close in the first quarter or for "not quitting" when they get a field goal during garbage time down by 50. How far has this program fallen if we're supposed to be excited over close loses and "moral victories"?

                    TG blamed injuries and COVID. Most teams have injuries and COVID issues. It is noteworthy that the series impacted the most by COVID, the postponed Notre Dame series in mid-February, was the series where UW got their only win during their 1-9 stretch to end the regular season.

                    I don't know what the average number of games-lost-due-to-injury is for a D1 program, but even if the Badgers had slightly more than average, it's hard to argue that was the difference between this team having a winning record vs losing record. Seems like Jesper took Mike V's spot on defense due to injury. Jesper had 7 points this year; Mike had 4 points last year. I believe Mike is a better player than Jesper, but I don't believe the drop-off between the two is so great that it could account for 5 or 6 more wins (17 of the Badgers 24 loses were by 3 or more goals; having an average defensive defenseman in the line-up wouldn't have closed that gap). Same can be said for Owen L. The Badgers missed him, especially on face offs and PK, but Owen's 4 goals from last year doesn't transform this team into a winner. I'm fine with TG saying the team would be better if they had not had any injuries, but to suggest that this team has a winning record if Mike V and Own are healthy is quite a stretch.

                    Lastly, TG continually asserts that youth is holding this team back. I hope he's wrong because his team doesn't look like it's going to get much older next year.
                    They're losing (approximate ages) Tarek (25 years old), Roman (23), Max (24), Tyler (23), and Ess (23) = 118 years.
                    They are adding Boston B (19), Tyson J (19), Jack H (20), Charlie S. (18), and Ben D (20) = 96 years.
                    If you add a year to all the returning players (+23) you end up with next year's team being (96+23=119) just one year older (119-118=1) than this year's team. If you spread that 1 year across 28 players it's essentially negligible. Unless he's able to use the transfer portal to bring in some 30-year-old seniors we're looking at another single digit regular season win total.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by druzy192 View Post

                      This is the problem. We should fill the kohl again. This loser pathetic mentality has spread across the UW Badger hockey program. And I don't mean you specifically Timothy. But I mean what the hell is going on around here? Are we shooting for participation trophies and having a nice coach?

                      I'm just flabbergasted with the amount of non championship mentality surrounding the hockey program. I blame the Athletic Department. Granato is out of his depth and can't do any better.
                      20 win seasons and NCAA appearances 3 of every 4 years should be the base level expectation. Frozen four appearances 3x per decade should also be an expectation. And this is my bare minimum. I don’t care what anyone says about different landscape or recruiting, or numbers of teams playing.

                      no excuses.
                      Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                      "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                      "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                      Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by druzy192 View Post
                        This is the problem. We should fill the kohl again.
                        I just think that things are so far gone bad that we can't get back to filling it even if we were really good. Sure it's the goal but I think people have replaced hockey with something else in thier lives.

                        And on top of this the parking lot off region street is being turned into a 12 story condo. Where in the world are people going to park?
                        Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
                        "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
                        Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                          I just think that things are so far gone bad that we can't get back to filling it even if we were really good. Sure it's the goal but I think people have replaced hockey with something else in their lives.
                          As I said previously, I could write a novel on the fan gameday experience and culture. I will try and be brief. What it was before 2013, before UW left the WCHA is dead and will need to be rebuilt from the ground up. That will take 3 things: time, wins, and excitement. My estimation is that it will take a minimum of 10 years and require the athletic department to actually commit to restoring the program to glory. That is a decade of 20 win seasons, 8 or more NCAA appearances, with at least two Frozen Four appearances. Great games, win or lose, against the other Big Ten teams, games that people will talk about and remember for years to come. once the on ice turnaround starts, the marketing team needs to find a way to drive fans to the games so they can experience and contribute to the gameday atmosphere. That said, the Kohl Center is, and has been since it opened, to big for the hockey program to fill on an every game basis. Which isn't to say the fanbase couldn't grow into it, but it hasn't in the 24 years since it opened and will likely be replaced before it happens at this point.

                          I'm sure that part of the reason the AD has not pulled the trigger on making a change is the uncertainty of the past 2 seasons, not that I think that is anything more than a convenient excuse at this point. I don't know how much more damage can be done to the program at this point, none of the incoming students have any first hand memory of UW hockey having a winning tradition and they have already lost the chance to convert nearly 2 decades of students into lifelong fans and program advocates. Maybe the best course of action is to hold course for another season or two until things in the world at large stabilize and then make the changes once a clearer path forward exists. Maybe the goal is to just drive the hockey program so far into the red financially that they can justify killing the program in a cost cutting move. Who know what is driving the decision making of those in charge or what their long term objectives are, because it does not appear to be having a winning program.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Almington View Post

                            ...

                            I'm sure that part of the reason the AD has not pulled the trigger on making a change is the uncertainty of the past 2 seasons, not that I think that is anything more than a convenient excuse at this point. I don't know how much more damage can be done to the program at this point, none of the incoming students have any first hand memory of UW hockey having a winning tradition and they have already lost the chance to convert nearly 2 decades of students into lifelong fans and program advocates. Maybe the best course of action is to hold course for another season or two until things in the world at large stabilize and then make the changes once a clearer path forward exists. Maybe the goal is to just drive the hockey program so far into the red financially that they can justify killing the program in a cost cutting move. Who know what is driving the decision making of those in charge or what their long term objectives are, because it does not appear to be having a winning program.
                            Let's hope it is the uncertainty. Like you, I can't believe they haven't see the same issues we the fans, or at least UW hockey nuts like me, see happening on the ice.

                            I can't believe it would be killing the program. But if they did, I would no longer support Wisconsin Athletics in any respect.
                            gwhinwi's: Wisconsin Badgers Recruiting Spreadsheet & Individual Face-Off Statistics

                            EODS: De-Commit / Non-Pro Early Departure List

                            Comment


                            • And that is why I don’t spend much time on this board anymore. Say something supportive of the program you are a fan of (and that we are all supposedly fans of) and get insulted and called a loser for having that opinion. I’m not wasting my time going back to read your recent posts, but I hope you are one of the fellows claiming they aren’t coming back to the Kohl Center, because honestly, I don’t want to share an arena with someone who would treat a fellow fan like you did.

                              Frustration is fair. Disappointment is fair. But personal insults? Says a lot more about you than anything else.

                              On Wisconsin.

                              Originally posted by druzy192 View Post

                              Are you high?

                              We just want the ****ing program to win a playoff game (Havent done that in like 8 or 9 years). And not look like losers. And have the games be fun again. And maybe even go to a final four!!!! Sometime... again.

                              What is doing no good...is losers and apologists like you enabling Granato, Jason King, Macintosh, and the Athletic Department to continue this pathetic crap show go on.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by WiscTJK View Post

                                Let's hope it is the uncertainty. Like you, I can't believe they haven't see the same issues we the fans, or at least UW hockey nuts like me, see happening on the ice.

                                I can't believe it would be killing the program. But if they did, I would no longer support Wisconsin Athletics in any respect.
                                I preferer to just attribute what is going on (and has been going on for the past 10+ seasons) to mindless indifference and a bias towards passivity and inaction rather than any maliciousness, but after this long it gets easy to see danger in all the shadows with the potential that someone with truly evil intent is pulling the strings behind the scenes waiting for their opportunity to strike.

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