The Barr Has Been Raised at UMaine

[Jackcurtis23]

I was going to let this lie, but the more I thought about the post you reference the more I thought I should reply. Here is your original post:

I always recall my father saying there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I've worked with college hockey stats for a log time and your statement is one of the more egregious use of stats. Maine has given up 6+ goals at Alfond numerous times in the past several seasons, including their only game there last season. However, you discount most of those games because some of the goals were scored on the powerplay. Even then, there are 2 games you couldn't dismiss using your very limited parameters, but you try to excuse those because 1) Quinnipiac was a very good team and 2) you imply the other time is solely the goalie's fault and even name him. I find that uncalled for, especially since you didn't call out the goalie who gave up the 7 goals to Quinnipiac.

The truth is that Maine hasn't been a good team for a decade and it will take a few seasons to rebuild if all goes well. A bad game like the Alaska game is just that, a bad game. I don't know if Coach Barr is the answer for Maine, but I do know it will take a few seasons before it will be possible to begin to answer that question. Coach Walsh had two losing seasons before his first winning season. And even with his winning records his 3rd and 4th seasons he only had a .500 cumulative coaching record after four seasons.

Sean

Stated better than I could - but thanks for the post, criticism of Ben Barr at this point is insane.

[Drew S.]

I was going to let this lie, but the more I thought about the post you reference the more I thought I should reply. Here is your original post:

I always recall my father saying there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I've worked with college hockey stats for a long time and your statement is one of the more egregious use of stats. Maine has given up 6+ goals at Alfond numerous times in the past several seasons, including their only game there last season. However, you discount most of those games because some of the goals were scored on the powerplay. Even then, there are 2 games you couldn't dismiss using your very limited parameters, but you try to excuse those because 1) Quinnipiac was a very good team and 2) you imply the other time is solely the goalie's fault and even name him. I find that uncalled for, especially since you didn't call out the goalie who gave up the 7 goals to Quinnipiac.

The truth is that Maine hasn't been a good team for a decade and it will take a few seasons to rebuild if all goes well. A bad game like the Alaska game is just that, a bad game. I don't know if Coach Barr is the answer for Maine, but I do know it will take a few seasons before it will be possible to begin to answer that question. Coach Walsh had two losing seasons before his first winning season. And even with his winning records his 3rd and 4th seasons he only had a .500 cumulative coaching record after four seasons.

Sean

I thought that stat gave context to just how poor the performance Friday night was. If you don’t think it’s relevant that certainly is your right.

If Friday had been a one off I certainly would view it differently. The fact that Maine has had so many absolutely horrible performances this year is what I find concerning. If you look at Saturday’s game Maine wasn’t great by any means but they were good enough to win(with their third string goalie.) That’s what we haven’t seen nearly enough this year.

[Fishman'81]

I was going to let this lie, but the more I thought about the post you reference the more I thought I should reply. Here is your original post:

I always recall my father saying there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I've worked with college hockey stats for a long time and your statement is one of the more egregious use of stats. Maine has given up 6+ goals at Alfond numerous times in the past several seasons, including their only game there last season. However, you discount most of those games because some of the goals were scored on the powerplay. Even then, there are 2 games you couldn't dismiss using your very limited parameters, but you try to excuse those because 1) Quinnipiac was a very good team and 2) you imply the other time is solely the goalie's fault and even name him. I find that uncalled for, especially since you didn't call out the goalie who gave up the 7 goals to Quinnipiac.

The truth is that Maine hasn't been a good team for a decade and it will take a few seasons to rebuild if all goes well. A bad game like the Alaska game is just that, a bad game. I don't know if Coach Barr is the answer for Maine, but I do know it will take a few seasons before it will be possible to begin to answer that question. Coach Walsh had two losing seasons before his first winning season. And even with his winning records his 3rd and 4th seasons he only had a .500 cumulative coaching record after four seasons.

Sean

Terribly inappropriate for me to say, but Drew is this thread's pet moron, and that's pretty much it.

I wouldn't bother to respond to his BS anymore. You're too good for that, truly.

[amkirby10]

Per the team's Instagram, LW Felix Trudeau will be officially joining the team this fall. He stands at 6'2, 176 lbs, and shoots left handed. In the BCHL this season with West Kelowna, he has scored 20-17-37 in 29 GP. He has 3 goals in his last 5 games, and 6 in his last 10. Looks like a very solid offensive weapon set to join us next fall.

[Drew S.]

Per the team's Instagram, LW Felix Trudeau will be officially joining the team this fall. He stands at 6'2, 176 lbs, and shoots left handed. In the BCHL this season with West Kelowna, he has scored 20-17-37 in 29 GP. He has 3 goals in his last 5 games, and 6 in his last 10. Looks like a very solid offensive weapon set to join us next fall.

They had Antonacci and Pabich the last couple of days.

[Sean Pickett]

If Friday had been a one off I certainly would view it differently. The fact that Maine has had so many absolutely horrible performances this year is what I find concerning. If you look at Saturday’s game Maine wasn’t great by any means but they were good enough to win(with their third string goalie.) That’s what we haven’t seen nearly enough this year.

You used such strict parameters to show how terrible the Friday game was that you only found 3 instances in two decades, but then say it is just one of many "absolutely horrible performances." You don't give any criteria to back up your statement, so I took a look at the stats I have compiled for Maine this season.

To date in Maine's games the goal differential has been 1.63/game and total goals have been 5.0/game, while the season averages for all men's college hockey games are 2.37/differential game and 5.76/goals game. When you remove Maine's three wins the goal differential only increases to 1.69/game, while the total goals drops to 4.44/game. So, in the games Maine has lost they have usually kept the games close. They have only fallen behind by 3 or more goals in four games (3, 5, 4, and 5 goals) and they have come back to win 3 games that they have trailed in (two of them by 2 goals).

The most notable problem Maine is having this season is scoring first, as they have only done that 3 times in 19 games, which is currently even worse percentagewise (15.8%) than last season (18.8%). Since the team that scores first has about a 0.700 win percentage playing from behind is really hurting Maine this season (as well as going 0-2-1 in the three games they scored first).

I haven't seen Maine play this season and I will admit that seeing a team play is important in evaluating it, but a person's view of how a team plays is subjective. They see what they want to see and overlook or dismiss what doesn't support their viewpoint, so I tend to stick to stats, even if they are imperfect.

Sean

[walrus]

Stated better than I could - but thanks for the post, criticism of Ben Barr at this point is insane.

Criticism goes with the job, win or hear about it from fan(atics) . But to say the sky is falling when it was lying on the ground when Barr got here is crazy.

[Drew S.]

You used such strict parameters to show how terrible the Friday game was that you only found 3 instances in two decades, but then say it is just one of many "absolutely horrible performances." You don't give any criteria to back up your statement, so I took a look at the stats I have compiled for Maine this season.

To date in Maine's games the goal differential has been 1.63/game and total goals have been 5.0/game, while the season averages for all men's college hockey games are 2.37/differential game and 5.76/goals game. When you remove Maine's three wins the goal differential only increases to 1.69/game, while the total goals drops to 4.44/game. So, in the games Maine has lost they have usually kept the games close. They have only fallen behind by 3 or more goals in four games (3, 5, 4, and 5 goals) and they have come back to win 3 games that they have trailed in (two of them by 2 goals).

The most notable problem Maine is having this season is scoring first, as they have only done that 3 times in 19 games, which is currently even worse percentagewise (15.8%) than last season (18.8%). Since the team that scores first has about a 0.700 win percentage playing from behind is really hurting Maine this season (as well as going 0-2-1 in the three games they scored first).

I haven't seen Maine play this season and I will admit that seeing a team play is important in evaluating it, but a person's view of how a team plays is subjective. They see what they want to see and overlook or dismiss what doesn't support their viewpoint, so I tend to stick to stats, even if they are imperfect.

Sean

An ‘absolutely horrible performance’ is like porn, you know it when you see it. Talking about this obviously upsets other Maine fans so there is no sense in me elaborating. I’ve found this year discouraging and in my opinion Maine has played way below the level they’re capable of. Hopefully with a different group of players we see a better effort level.

[umhockey91]

An ‘absolutely horrible performance’ is like porn, you know it when you see it. Talking about this obviously upsets other Maine fans so there is no sense in me elaborating. I’ve found this year discouraging and in my opinion Maine has played way below the level they’re capable of. Hopefully with a different group of players we see a better effort level.

I've found the last decade plus discouraging.....but now we have hope. Sometimes hope is all you have to hang on to. I like the direction that Barr & Co. are going in recruiting wise. I think that we will finally start seeing some decent D-men and forwards that can actually put the puck in the net(!!!). The crop of committed recruits from the BCHL look impressive.

[AMC]

An ‘absolutely horrible performance’ is like porn, you know it when you see it. Talking about this obviously upsets other Maine fans so there is no sense in me elaborating. I’ve found this year discouraging and in my opinion Maine has played way below the level they’re capable of. Hopefully with a different group of players we see a better effort level.

What is bonkers to all of us is your swing from a years long defense of the awful teams Red put out (papered over by Swayman for one year) to indicting Barr based upon a half season.

It's like you paved over your neighbor's flower garden, and now you are *****ing that the sunflowers can't grow through the concrete.

[Chuck Murray]

An ‘absolutely horrible performance’ is like porn, you know it when you see it. Talking about this obviously upsets other Maine fans so there is no sense in me elaborating. I’ve found this year discouraging and in my opinion Maine has played way below the level they’re capable of. Hopefully with a different group of players we see a better effort level.

There were always going to be games like this, Drew. Returning players mostly brought in by the former coach, forced to play a new system that's foreign to them, and starting pretty much from scratch, all the while knowing most of them only have a year or two to put up with this before they move on. And none with any realistic high-level pro ambitions to keep them on the straight and narrow. As I've pointed out multiple times before, this is exactly what happened in Barr's first year at UMass, so we've all seen this movie before. A combination of undertalented AND undermotivated players in the mix is never gonna end well competitively. It takes a Lombardi-level motivator to turn a bunch of also-rans into future Hall of Famers, and those guys virtually had no viable options back then. If a few more kids leave for paying jobs in the 'Coast between now and next Fall, UMaine's improvement might arrive more quickly. And if not ... you gotta be patient.

[Drew S.]

There were always going to be games like this, Drew. Returning players mostly brought in by the former coach, forced to play a new system that's foreign to them, and starting pretty much from scratch, all the while knowing most of them only have a year or two to put up with this before they move on. And none with any realistic high-level pro ambitions to keep them on the straight and narrow. As I've pointed out multiple times before, this is exactly what happened in Barr's first year at UMass, so we've all seen this movie before. A combination of undertalented AND undermotivated players in the mix is never gonna end well competitively. It takes a Lombardi-level motivator to turn a bunch of also-rans into future Hall of Famers, and those guys virtually had no viable options back then. If a few more kids leave for paying jobs in the 'Coast between now and next Fall, UMaine's improvement might arrive more quickly. And if not ... you gotta be patient.

The Umass comparison just doesn’t work. They had been rock bottom for three or four straight years, didn’t have much talent, and had AWFUL goaltending. Maine is a couple years removed from being an NCAA team and even last year with everything that went against them managed to finish eighth. The much bigger thing is that Umass had Cale Makar lined up and Maine doesn’t have anyone close to that.

[Drew S.]

I've found the last decade plus discouraging.....but now we have hope. Sometimes hope is all you have to hang on to. I like the direction that Barr & Co. are going in recruiting wise. I think that we will finally start seeing some decent D-men and forwards that can actually put the puck in the net(!!!). The crop of committed recruits from the BCHL look impressive.

I hear you on wishing we could go back in time. I think for me the toughest years we’re back in 2008 and 2009 when Maine went from being in the frozen four to finishing second bottom and third bottom.

All of College hockey and hockey east has changed so much for the worse in the last 20 years that even if Maine is good again I’m not sure it will ever be enjoyable as it was at one time. There is way too much parity and there just isn’t the excitement and inteeet there used to be. Look at how empty the garden has been for the bean pot and hockey east championships in recent times.

I think the expectations for Barr are a little unreasonable. I honestly would be thrilled if he could get Maine consistently up to 4th thru 7th in the league. You mention the talent coming in, but is Josh Nadeau any better than Adam Dawe? Is Trudeau any better than JSS? Hopefully they will be but if they’re not I wouldn’t be shocked. Barr definitely has some good dmen lined up but I’m not sold he has enough talent up front.

[BlackBearFan19]

I hear you on wishing we could go back in time. I think for me the toughest years we’re back in 2008 and 2009 when Maine went from being in the frozen four to finishing second bottom and third bottom.

All of College hockey and hockey east has changed so much for the worse in the last 20 years that even if Maine is good again I’m not sure it will ever be enjoyable as it was at one time. There is way too much parity and there just isn’t the excitement and inteeet there used to be. Look at how empty the garden has been for the bean pot and hockey east championships in recent times.

I think the expectations for Barr are a little unreasonable. I honestly would be thrilled if he could get Maine consistently up to 4th thru 7th in the league. You mention the talent coming in, but is Josh Nadeau any better than Adam Dawe? Is Trudeau any better than JSS? Hopefully they will be but if they’re not I wouldn’t be shocked. Barr definitely has some good dmen lined up but I’m not sold he has enough talent up front.

Dawe and JSS have combined for 11 points. Those two guys have proved unwilling to change their play style and seem to have lost their game. I hope they find it cause they were really fun to watch their sophomore year. I have zero doubt that Trudeau and Nadeau will provide more output. I expect Pabich and Kiecker-Olsen to be improvements from them at least output wise. The recruiting class coming in next year is probably the deepest in a decade and we should be excited about it.

As for last years team being “eighth” and the previous year being a tournament team, last year was a fluke eighth due to the power index and the year before that team wins 10 games without swayman. Things were not going well before, no matter how much we loved Red. Everyone wanted it to work out with him and it didn’t. Ragging on and rooting for the new guy to fail is no way to memorialize Red. Truly I think this team is an improvement from last year, regardless of the record. They’re not letting up 50+ shots a night. They’re tough to watch offensively but help is on the way, I can assure you, watch some highlights of the Penticton vees, every goal scored has a Maine commit involved.

[BoSox3066]

Maine hasn’t been to the Garden in ten years no body is buying your insanity that they havent been rock bottom for 3-4 years like Umass was. Pass the bong dude