NCAA Tourney Team Selection Options

[Lemonade]

THIS, if it were the only motivation, is something I'd be ok with, yet it's not BOTH Minnesota and Massachusetts being left out, only Minnesota, Mass still gets 5 tournaments from 2020-2026, Minnesota gets 1.

And your Title comparison? 5 teams with 8 titles vs 11 teams with 11 titles, doesn't say as much to bolster what you think you are saying as you think it does.

Also, UND with 6 titles is basically right on the Minnesota border and UW with another 6 titles is a short bus ride away from the Twin Cities and both relied heavily on the state of Minnesota to fill their rosters. Why are there ZERO tourney's held in Wisconsin? I mean, i know the answer, and it's legitimate, but doesn't change the fact that a state with 6 titles never gets even a Regional tourney.

And going forward, I'd bet my house that more Minnesota based teams will win Natl Titles and make FFs than Mass based teams.

Again, I am not arguing that all tournaments need to be held in Minnesota, lol. That would not help college hockey at all. But at the same time, for all that Minnesota has done to help build college hockey here in America, you'd think they wouldn't try SO HARD to avoid rewarding Minnesota in any way. I mean one out of forty tournaments, while Mass gets 5 and Penn gets 5, NH gets 4, NY gets 3 and even RI gets 2.

If the NCAA wants to promote hockey and get it out of saturated markets, why are they continuing to play so many tournaments in Eastern states??? Play ALL of our FFs in Vegas and Florida and maybe Arizona or Texas or Cali, as all would be neutral locations with pro hockey arenas and potential schools nearby that are considering starting up hockey, but don't avoid Minnesota while having lots of tourneys in Mass, NH, NY & RI and claim it's not biased and only for the good of college hockey.

Massachusetts has 11 titles from 3 teams
Minnesota has 8 titles from 2 teams

Massachusetts wins.

[FredsDeadFriend]

Future Frozen Fours:
2023 - Tampa
2024 - St Paul
2025 - St Louis
2026 - Vegas

Looks pretty west to me.

Funny, you forget to mention 2019, 2021 and 2022 FFs, in Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Boston, all locations multiple Eastern fan bases can drive/bus to. And all but 1 of the 4 you listed are hardly western, they are neutral, ZERO hockey programs can bus to Tampa, or Vegas or St Louis.

[FredsDeadFriend]

Do you have proof or do you not? Let's keep it simple.

Do you? If neither of us has proof, then simple common sense and historical precedence and logic favors my argument.

[UMLFan]

Do you? If neither of us has proof, then simple common sense and historical precedence and logic favors my argument.

When someone says they're "sure" of something, the burden of proof is on them. That's how debate works.

[FredsDeadFriend]

FDF,
I don't know just how exactly you think that there is somehow an inherent, and willful, bias in the PWR. But, as far as I can see, the PWR which usually chooses the field is a completely neutral set of mathematical calculations. There would be little way for the people at the NCAA to manipulate it if they wished. And, there being no subjective criteria in choosing the field, any complaints about the distribution of the field in the last 30 are hollow complaints.

As far as regional sites....the NCAA handbook for bidding sites places so many very stringent rules on hosts, that there is very little room for the host arena to make a profit unless there are lots and lots of tickets sold to the regionals. This is the origin of the NC$$ moniker. Because it is that way (and clearly the motivation is to make money for the NCAA), then it is always feasible for the eastern sites of Bridgeport, Manchester, Albany, and a couple of others to bid. There are enough colleges close by that there will be fans from those schools in attendance. However, in the west, this is not the case. Take Loveland. In a non-COVID year, it's going to be very difficult for fans from Minnesota, Michigan, and other places to go to the regional. So, the only way it makes sense to host is under the assumption that Denver, or CC or Air Force qualifies. The only way that this would change is if it were possible to host on campus. Until about 12 years ago or so, it was possible, and there were years when the U of Minn hosted at Mariucci. Then, the NCAA deemed on campus sites to be too advantageous for the host school, and discouraged them. Since that time, the only on campus regionals have been at Notre Dame, and that was because (in the words of the NCAA), no one else bid for those Midwest Regionals.

Let me ask you this: If you can't host a Regional on campus, just where in Minnesota do you propose to host the regional? I can think of a couple of possibilities: One is the home rink of SCSU, which is not on campus. The other is the home rink of UMD, also not on campus. Have either of those schools bid to host? Not that I am aware of. There is, in the archives, an article suggesting that Duluth bid to host in 15 and in 16, and that article states that the NCAA preference is not only "not on-campus sites", but schools home rinks as well. As you can readily understand, this takes every good option in Minnesota out of the question.

What you seem to be suggesting is that the NCAA did this intentionally in order to favor eastern teams. I would say that is NOT the case, and that the NCAA actually did this ignorantly, not paying attention to the situation in the west. And, that, as a result of a policy which is ill founded, there is nowhere in Minnesota to host a regional.

Everything you write about the NCAA Tournament can easily be attributed to this kind of ignorance. It's not intentional. It's just that the NCAA is fairly blind to the realities in the west.

You give far too much benefit of the doubt to the NCAA powers that be, claiming ALL of the things they do that favor Eastern schools, are done out of ignorance.

Ask very old western hockey fans and they will probably tell you, that there has been a major rift between the East and West in hockey for a very long time. I mean, you can see it everywhere. Have you watched the movie Miracle? The conflict among players wasn't UMD or Wisconsin or BG players hating Gopher players, it was BC/BU players hating Gopher players and vice versa.

I'm not suggesting that Western teams all love each other, there has been major beefs between western teams as well, one of the more significant being teams depending on older Canadian players being resented by other teams who didn't depend on older Canadian players. But the divide between Eastern and Western teams has existed since college hockey started.

[Numbers]

Funny, you forget to mention 2019, 2021 and 2022 FFs, in Buffalo, Pittsburgh and Boston, all locations multiple Eastern fan bases can drive/bus to. And all but 1 of the 4 you listed are hardly western, they are neutral, ZERO hockey programs can bus to Tampa, or Vegas or St Louis.

Just exactly what do you expect when the NCAA prefers NHL arenas for the Frozen Four, for the size of the attendance? Just where do you propose to put the Frozen Four where multiple western fan bases can drive there? The only places are St Paul and Detroit, right?

[Lemonade]

I picture FredsDeadFriend about two cases deep, sitting in a tiny ice fishing barn on the frozen tundra of Minnesota right now typing away about the glory days of Minnesota North Stars hockey.

[J.D.]

Yes, let's go back and talk about college hockey back in the 50s as if it has any relevance on today's game. This East vs. West obsession is strange.

[Numbers]

Watching College hockey for decades now, and being a stats geek, it's been obvious to me that the PWR is basically nothing more than the RPI. They don't start out matching top to bottom, and even later in the season sometimes vary slightly, but for the most part, by the end of the season, the PWR almost exactly matches the RPI, because SO much of how it's calculated, depends on the same or far too similar of mathematical equations.

The NCAA Colllege Basketball Selection Committee gave up on the RPI a long time ago, after years of criticism for their depending on it, as it is a ******** rating system, probably the WORST math based rating system in the history of college sports. Yet College hockey is STILL married to it.


It's basically a system that far too much rewards wins even against creampuffs and punishes teams for losing to even the best of competition.


So... the bias comes from teams playing in weak conferences being rewarded with being rated highly and teams competing in very tough conferences struggling to get any respect from the PWR.

Your complaint about the RPI doesn't hold water when:
1- NCAA still uses it in Basketball
2- Even if they didn't, the definition of RPI in hockey and basketball is mathematically different
3- Hockey RPI very closely mirrors the more mathematically robust and correct KRACH calculation. Look at the last 3 or 4 years of data, exclude this year, and compare between RPI and KRACH for hockey. If you really are a stats geek, you would know this.

[FredsDeadFriend]

I don't know who this crazy guy is but the Gophers have not been putting in bids all the time anymore because the X is too big. It's bad because UND is ending up with essentially home ice advantage to the FF every two years.

It's time to go back to campus locations.

Well, if the Gophers aren't putting in bids all the time anymore, it's only because the NCAA changed the rules in a way that favors eastern teams, and prevents the Gophers from being able to make a bid that in any way favors them, thus backing up my whole theory!!!

And YES, it IS time to go back to campus locations.

But that won't ever happen, probably, because the Powers that be that favor Eastern teams, love that going away from campus locations helps even the playing field for eastern teams.

[J.D.]

It's time to go back to campus locations.

Coaches don't want that. Until the time comes where the NCAA says this format isn't working and is costing us money, it ain't happening. Plus, you just said UND gets home ice in Fargo. Now you want them to have home ice in Grand Forks?

[Numbers]

I picture FredsDeadFriend about two cases deep, sitting in a tiny ice fishing barn on the frozen tundra of Minnesota right now typing away about the glory days of Minnesota North Stars hockey.

Hey!! Watch it. I still think the North Stars name is better than "Wild" and they had better uniforms, too.

[Numbers]

Coaches don't want that. Until the time comes where the NCAA says this format isn't working and is costing us money, it ain't happening. Plus, you just said UND gets home ice in Fargo. Now you want them to have home ice in Grand Forks?

This is an argument for another place, but since UND gets advantage in both Fargo and Sioux Falls (even though Omaha is the official host in SF), it would be more fair if it were also possible for Duluth, for UMinn, for Wisc to have the same. All these schools have bid on campus before. Even St Cloud could bid then. It would definitely spread out the hosting responsibilities.

However, it won't happen until NCAA runs into a situation with no bids.

[J.D.]

Do you? If neither of us has proof, then simple common sense and historical precedence and logic favors my argument.

No, no, no that's not how this works. A Gopher fan already chimed in and said the Gophers haven't been bidding. You can't ask someone for proof and then when you are asked for proof fall back on "well it's a reasonable assumption". Please do us all a favor and go back to the women's forum.

[Lemonade]

Seems like someone is favoring Minnesota...

https://www.startribune.com/three-mo...bed/572737731/

If you’re looking to watch NCAA hockey champions crowned, Minnesota will be the place to be from 2023 through 2025, with three Frozen Fours — two for the women and one for the men — coming to the State of Hockey.

If you were looking for a quick return to the NCAA Wrestling Championships after the 2020 event slated for U.S. Bank Stadium was canceled because of the coronavirus pandemic, your wait continues.

The NCAA on Wednesday announced sites of more than 450 preliminary rounds and championship events from 2022 to 2026, and Minnesota received four championships, including three in hockey. They are:

• The 2024 Men’s Frozen Four at Xcel Energy Center.

• The 2023 Women’s Frozen Four at Duluth’s Amsoil Arena.

• The 2025 Women’s Frozen Four at Ridder Arena.

• The 2023 Men’s Swimming and Diving Championships at the Jean K. Freeman Aquatic Center.