NCAA Tourney Team Selection Options

[Lemonade]

I labeled Minnesota as the "State of Hockey", because it is. It's been the #1 producer of Div 1 NCAA hockey players for probably 90% of the years hockey has existed, and produces the most NHL players, as well. Midwestern teams almost never recruit eastern players, but eastern teams regularly go after Minnesota players, and far more often go after Canadians than Western teams, mostly out of need.

And how many of those 10 Mass based teams and 11 NY based teams have won Titles, or gotten to Frozen Fours or even made the NCAA tourney?

Last 50 years, UND has 6 titles, UW has 6, UMn has 5, DU has 3, UMD has 3, LSSU has 3, Mich has 2, MSU has 2, MT has 1, NM has 1 and BG has 1. That is 33 of the last 49 titles(last 50 seasons). That is TWICE as many as Eastern teams have produced.

I could also include that the US Hockey Hall of Fame is located in Minnesota, not anywhere in the NE, and it's filled with more Minnesotans than any other state's players, and for good reason. Minnesota also produces the majority of US Olympic players and it's not even close.

Its about LOGISTICS. Tell Minnesota to get off their hump and put in for some bids. Not sure Minnesota in April is a great draw but go for it. Cant be worse than Fargo....

[Numbers]

I labeled Minnesota as the "State of Hockey", because it is. It's been the #1 producer of Div 1 NCAA hockey players for probably 90% of the years hockey has existed, and produces the most NHL players, as well. Midwestern teams almost never recruit eastern players, but eastern teams regularly go after Minnesota players, and far more often go after Canadians than Western teams, mostly out of need.

And how many of those 10 Mass based teams and 11 NY based teams have won Titles, or gotten to Frozen Fours or even made the NCAA tourney?

Last 50 years, UND has 6 titles, UW has 6, UMn has 5, DU has 3, UMD has 3, LSSU has 3, Mich has 2, MSU has 2, MT has 1, NM has 1 and BG has 1. That is 33 of the last 49 titles(last 50 seasons). That is TWICE as many as Eastern teams have produced.

I could also include that the US Hockey Hall of Fame is located in Minnesota, not anywhere in the NE, and it's filled with more Minnesotans than any other state's players, and for good reason. Minnesota also produces the majority of US Olympic players and it's not even close.

The reason that there haven't been more regionals in Minnesota is, quite frankly, that no one there has bid to host one. That's mostly because the NCAA has changed the rules so that they prefer off-campus locations, and in the western parts, it's well known that there is no money to be made hosting if you can't be sure there will be fans present for the games. This is mostly due to NCAA. It's a real stretch to assume those rules are in place specifically to keep western teams from thriving. A real stretch. Much more likely is that off campus feels much more neutral.

This is the reason for Fargo and Sioux Falls. NoDak bids to host there, knowing their fans will make the trip down I-29 and fill both arenas.

No neutral site in Minnesota really works for this set up.

That's the reason.

Is there Eastern bias? In some small ways, yes. Most Eastern fans have no idea about the distances between schools in the west. This is a cultural bias, not a hockey bias.

Is there some conspiracy about placement of teams in Regions to prevent 4 western teams from filling the F4? No. Anyone who has been paying attention knows that. The committee has been making justifiable choices about the regionals all of the time. No conspiracy.

And, this year, the likely distribution is 10-6. For the west. No bias there.

[lakersparty]

This state of hockey argument is amusing, especially when there's a state that has 19 national championships. If we're going to use arbitrary stuff like "state of hockey" in an NCAA tournament bid conversation, then let's just give LSSU a tourney bid now without having to even play the Bemidji game tonight because the Lakers are from the state with 19 titles.

[FredsDeadFriend]

If coaches and administrators don't like the current system, have they made proposals that have been shot down? UND is smart to host in Fargo. Denver got the memo with Loveland now in the picture. Same for Penn State and Allentown.

If these clearly superior, big, bad western teams can't handle getting on a plane to go beat the little sisters of the poor in the east in front of terrible crowds or in this year's case no crowd...do something about it. Work something out where you are hosting a regional. Or tell the NCAA that you will cover the costs of sending eastern teams out west.

Western team have ALWAYS spent more money for travel expenses throughout their regular seasons, and then have dominated NCAA tourney play, so it is Eastern teams that should have to come out west to play, if things were fair. But they are not fair, never have been, and never will be. I'm sure Minnesota has requested Regionals and FFs every year but seemingly only got rewarded with ONE in 40. And with Eastern biased people in charge, it won't matter if Minnesota asks for tournaments or not, they simply won't get them, because the NCAA is all about giving the little sisters of the poor out east as much help as they can, otherwise they'd win even less than they do now.

Btw, where have the best attended Frozen Fours been located? I'll give you a hint, they are all out West.

[FredsDeadFriend]

Now that's an interesting way to prove your point. But I'll agree, since obviously the Hall of Fame is in Minnesota, why even bother letting anyone from outside that state play in the NCAAs?

I'm fine with letting Eastern teams "play" in the NCAA tourney, but they shouldn't be given extra advantages, such as the majority of home field advantages come tourney time and a PWR rating system designed to help them out and get more Eastern teams into the tourney than otherwise would.

Eastern teams were given an advantage in the past simply by being guaranteed 2 bids to the Frozen Four for decades while they proved year after year that they probably didn't deserve to even be in the tournament.

[FredsDeadFriend]

Its about LOGISTICS. Tell Minnesota to get off their hump and put in for some bids. Not sure Minnesota in April is a great draw but go for it. Cant be worse than Fargo....

You have proof that Minnesota isn't putting in bids? And what? Pittsburgh, Boston, Buffalo, St Louis or Detroit are incredible places to visit in April? lol

[J.D.]

Do you have proof that Minnesota IS putting in bids? This is an easy game to play.

[UMLFan]

Do you have proof that Minnesota IS putting in bids? This is an easy game to play.

Right question.

I'm sure Minnesota has requested Regionals and FFs every year but seemingly only got rewarded with ONE in 40.

Because "I'm sure" isn't proof.

I think what Numbers said above how "No neutral site in Minnesota really works for this set up" makes sense, but I don't know that for sure either.

[captain beefheart]

Dear lord

Well said.

[Lemonade]

You have proof that Minnesota isn't putting in bids? And what? Pittsburgh, Boston, Buffalo, St Louis or Detroit are incredible places to visit in April? lol

I am sure there is a lot that goes into selecting locations. With the growth of hockey I would expect even more locations to be popping up as more programs get going to spread the game. Playing in Minnesota or Massachusetts in a saturated market really doesn't grow the game. If you want to get more specific the state of Massachusetts has 11 national titles compared to only 8 in Minnesotay.....

A site in Arizona would be awesome....only 20 states have NCAA D1 hockey programs.

[FredsDeadFriend]

This is mostly due to NCAA. It's a real stretch to assume those rules are in place specifically to keep western teams from thriving. A real stretch. Much more likely is that off campus feels much more neutral.


Is there Eastern bias? In some small ways, yes. Most Eastern fans have no idea about the distances between schools in the west. This is a cultural bias, not a hockey bias.

Is there some conspiracy about placement of teams in Regions to prevent 4 western teams from filling the F4? No. Anyone who has been paying attention knows that. The committee has been making justifiable choices about the regionals all of the time. No conspiracy.

And, this year, the likely distribution is 10-6. For the west. No bias there.

the "likely" distribution is 10-6, but we have yet to see that be the case.

And I'm basing my theory on DECADES of evidence, going all the way back to 1948, and also including Women's hockey. Constantly the NCAA does all it can to give Eastern teams advantages they don't deserve or haven't earned. Now maybe this is the best thing for college hockey in general, and IF that was their sole motivation, I would be reluctantly fine with it. And THAT, is part of the motivation, I'm guessing, but the East vs West issue has existed since the very beginning. An analysis of tourney data from 1948 to 1963, shows OVERWHELMING evidence that Western teams were clearly better than Eastern teams, yet not once did the West get more than 2 teams into the Frozen Four, and no matter how weak and pathetic the East was, they ALWAYS got their allotment of 2 guaranteed teams into the Frozen Four.

14 Champions in those 16 years, and 10 Runner Ups, so 24 Title game appearances out of 32 chances, and one of those years, 1961, that was forced by the 2 eastern teams being paired against each other in the Semis. Western teams outscored Eastern teams in E vs W matchups in 15 of the 16 seasons and in only 2 of those 15 seasons was it even close. I'll continue looking at 1964-1970, where I am sure the Eastern teams will start to look better, but my guess is the Western dominance will continue, for the most part. I limited my earlier comparisons to the last 50 years because I knew it would help the East, as things have gotten better for Eastern teams, but again, why is this? Because they are the little sisters of the poor needing the help and unfair advantages from the NCAA in an effort to even things up?

[FredsDeadFriend]

Do you have proof that Minnesota IS putting in bids? This is an easy game to play.

Well, Minnesota puts in bids for basically everything else, so it's a very reasonable assumption they DO put in as many bids as they can. Maybe if you were a Minnesotan and knew how many NCAA Swimming Championships, and NCAA basketball Final Fours, and NCAA anything else, and PGA Golf Championships, and Super Bowls, etc., that they make bids on, heck, they even put in bids for the Olympic Games, then you'd understand how ******** it is to assume they don't put in bids for NCAA hockey tournaments.

[Siouxfaninseattle]

Yikes....

I would not want to see UND and SCSU in the same regional, as some of the proposed regionals are predicted, simply because they finished 1-2 in the regular season and 1-2 in the conference playoffs.

[Lemonade]

Well, Minnesota puts in bids for basically everything else, so it's a very reasonable assumption they DO put in as many bids as they can. Maybe if you were a Minnesotan and knew how many NCAA Swimming Championships, and NCAA basketball Final Fours, and NCAA anything else, and PGA Golf Championships, and Super Bowls, etc., that they make bids on, heck, they even put in bids for the Olympic Games, then you'd understand how ******** it is to assume they don't put in bids for NCAA hockey tournaments.

Well since you stated that "33 of the last 49 titles(last 50 seasons). That is TWICE as many as Eastern teams have produced."...that would look to me that the NCAA is doing something that favors the west team does it not? Maybe travel and locations have benefits - team bonding, focus on game, etc.

[J.D.]

So now the PWR is designed to help more Eastern teams get in. Please explain to us how the PWR factors in being a Western team vs. Eastern. Do Eastern teams get more credit for results? If we are simply breaking out East/West by league and the western leagues are WCHA/NCHC and Big Ten...2019 was an 8-8 split.

2018: 9-7 west
2017: 9-7 west
2016: 9-7 east
2015: 9-7 west
2014: 8-8
2013: 8-8
2012: 9-7 west
2011: 9-7 west

National titles in that time are 5-4 for the west. Ya, what a corrupt system we have. The east only won those 4 titles because the committee refuses to flood the tournament with 10+ western teams every year! You're simply talking out of your ***.

2016 national title game in the great western city of Tampa, FL: 19,358
2015 in Boston (here is where you will move the goalposts and say it's because BU played Providence): 18,022
2014 in Philly: 18,742
2013 in Pittsburgh: 18,184
2012 in Tampa: 18,818