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Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Hockeybuckeye View Post
    How do you judge success? At most regionals after the first day half the fans typically bail when the first two teams are eliminated.
    I believe Miami, Notre Dame, and SCSU were there. Can't remember the the 4th team. Place wasn't even half full, and SCSU had the largest fan base in attendance.

    Bowling Green was the host. If BG starts consistently making the tourney, they will host there again and sellout.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

      Originally posted by pdt1081 View Post
      I believe Miami, Notre Dame, and SCSU were there. Can't remember the the 4th team. Place wasn't even half full, and SCSU had the largest fan base in attendance.

      Bowling Green was the host. If BG starts consistently making the tourney, they will host there again and sellout.
      Notre Dame, Miami, Mankato and St Cloud. SCSU upset Notre Dame and Miami to advance to the Frozen Four.
      Attendance was 2988 and 2460 (out of 7389 capacity)

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

        Originally posted by pdt1081 View Post
        I believe Miami, Notre Dame, and SCSU were there. Can't remember the the 4th team. Place wasn't even half full, and SCSU had the largest fan base in attendance.

        Bowling Green was the host. If BG starts consistently making the tourney, they will host there again and sellout.
        Minnesota State was the 4th team. To say the place wasn't half full is far too kind. As Notre Dame was sleepwalking through their 17-1 loss to St.Cloud (OK it just seemed that bad, I think it might have been 5-1) I got tremendously bored and counted the "crowd." Twice. Once late in the second period and once early in the third period. Both times I counted around 800 people. The boxscore attendance for that game is sheer fantasy. No way 3000 people paid inflated NCAA regional ticket prices and then did not show up. They made up the number. It was a complete disaster.

        For the life of me I can't imagine why anyone bids on an NCAA regional. Anyone who has ever read the host manual knows why I think that. You have to guarantee the NCAA a minimum amount of money and if you don't sell enough tickets or merchandise to do so, you pay out of your own pocket. After you reach the minimum guarantee, it isn't like you get to keep the rest. No, you have to share most of the revenue you generated with the NCAA. After you give them their cut of left over revenue after you met the minimum, hopefully you have enough left over to pay all of the expenses. If not, your loss. If by some miracle you actually then still have some money left over, the sharing ain't over yet. You STILL have to share some of it with the NCAA.

        Notre Dame has hosted two of these and the first was awful, in Fort Wayne and even with Miami and Michigan, no one showed up. They got smart when they hosted again at the Compton, which the NCAA allowed because due to their greed and the extreme niche status of our sport. They charged their entire season ticket base $45 for NCAA tickets. They generated nearly $100,000 doing so. But due to Notre Dame crapping the bed that season, Notre Dame was golfing while their rink was hosting. Did fans get a refund? Of course not. The games were still played. By my count there weren't a dozen season ticket holders in the building for both games. As anyone with eyes knows, 95% of the fans out there are almost exclusively fans of their team, not of the sport. Years ago I remember going to plenty of conference or NCAA tournament events in different sports with multiple games and 4 or 8 teams. You often saw plenty of people stay for the whole event, or at the very least I would see basketball fans stay for at least 2 of four games. Not anymore. And people spending less time in the building means fewer concessions get sold.

        For me, if I'm in the building I'd rather have packed stands and a great atmosphere. And that means campus sites for higher seeds. But I also know if there were twice as many sites, and the tournament wasn't single elimination the TV coverage would suffer greatly. It isn't perfect now, but it allows you to watch at least parts of all the games, and most or all of most of them. It's a great three days, in my opinion and the play far outclasses the men's basketball tournament. Our tournament has become one of the best things going, with the mix of teams that can win, and all of the upsets. 1500 people in an 8000 seat arena sucks, but 99% of us will watch this on TV and not in person, so I have come to accept it.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

          Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post

          For the life of me I can't imagine why anyone bids on an NCAA regional. Anyone who has ever read the host manual knows why I think that. You have to guarantee the NCAA a minimum amount of money and if you don't sell enough tickets or merchandise to do so, you pay out of your own pocket. After you reach the minimum guarantee, it isn't like you get to keep the rest. No, you have to share most of the revenue you generated with the NCAA. After you give them their cut of left over revenue after you met the minimum, hopefully you have enough left over to pay all of the expenses. If not, your loss. If by some miracle you actually then still have some money left over, the sharing ain't over yet. You STILL have to share some of it with the NCAA.
          ^^^^^^ This. So much this.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

            The one thing nobody has brought up is that if you let higher seeds host Teams that play in Olympic Ice would get to play NCAA games on an Olympic sheet. I am a big fan of this.
            tUMD is Jan Brady per Brenthoven. Whew.... thanks for clearing THAT up.

            Best USCHO quotes to date:

            "UND/DU will realize that their party sucks, because the easterners only want to drink Zima." - BPH

            "It is too bad that aaron marvin was a senior so he can't go after the rest of the sioux". - bigblue_dl

            "I would rather play the blackhawks than you right now." - dogs2012

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ticapnews View Post
              ^^^^^^ This. So much this.
              I was about to dismiss this thread as a large, collective wet fart until I read that comment. Well done, NDHockey
              If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

              BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


              At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

              Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
                Minnesota State was the 4th team. To say the place wasn't half full is far too kind. As Notre Dame was sleepwalking through their 17-1 loss to St.Cloud (OK it just seemed that bad, I think it might have been 5-1) I got tremendously bored and counted the "crowd." Twice. Once late in the second period and once early in the third period. Both times I counted around 800 people. The boxscore attendance for that game is sheer fantasy. No way 3000 people paid inflated NCAA regional ticket prices and then did not show up. They made up the number. It was a complete disaster.

                For the life of me I can't imagine why anyone bids on an NCAA regional. Anyone who has ever read the host manual knows why I think that. You have to guarantee the NCAA a minimum amount of money and if you don't sell enough tickets or merchandise to do so, you pay out of your own pocket. After you reach the minimum guarantee, it isn't like you get to keep the rest. No, you have to share most of the revenue you generated with the NCAA. After you give them their cut of left over revenue after you met the minimum, hopefully you have enough left over to pay all of the expenses. If not, your loss. If by some miracle you actually then still have some money left over, the sharing ain't over yet. You STILL have to share some of it with the NCAA.

                Notre Dame has hosted two of these and the first was awful, in Fort Wayne and even with Miami and Michigan, no one showed up. They got smart when they hosted again at the Compton, which the NCAA allowed because due to their greed and the extreme niche status of our sport. They charged their entire season ticket base $45 for NCAA tickets. They generated nearly $100,000 doing so. But due to Notre Dame crapping the bed that season, Notre Dame was golfing while their rink was hosting. Did fans get a refund? Of course not. The games were still played. By my count there weren't a dozen season ticket holders in the building for both games. As anyone with eyes knows, 95% of the fans out there are almost exclusively fans of their team, not of the sport. Years ago I remember going to plenty of conference or NCAA tournament events in different sports with multiple games and 4 or 8 teams. You often saw plenty of people stay for the whole event, or at the very least I would see basketball fans stay for at least 2 of four games. Not anymore. And people spending less time in the building means fewer concessions get sold.

                For me, if I'm in the building I'd rather have packed stands and a great atmosphere. And that means campus sites for higher seeds. But I also know if there were twice as many sites, and the tournament wasn't single elimination the TV coverage would suffer greatly. It isn't perfect now, but it allows you to watch at least parts of all the games, and most or all of most of them. It's a great three days, in my opinion and the play far outclasses the men's basketball tournament. Our tournament has become one of the best things going, with the mix of teams that can win, and all of the upsets. 1500 people in an 8000 seat arena sucks, but 99% of us will watch this on TV and not in person, so I have come to accept it.
                Truth.

                And apparently it can't be repeated often enough. I get that a number of good hockey people are hungry for an accessible regional, including good people from my own fanbase. But it is urgently important that we remember the history as it actually occurred. No matter how well intentioned, white washing history just leads to repeating past mistakes.

                1500 people in an 8000 seat arena is exactly the kind of result that the current format routinely generates. I've long given up on attending regionals, and instead watch on TV. Unless there's meaningful reform of the current format, I won't be back. Put the games in locations where fans will actually attend, or count me out. For those of us in the CCHA states, and in most of the Midwest, it's the rational response.

                I do need to partially dissent on one point. I "accept" the current system in the sense that I enjoy the telecasts and am grateful for them. But I would gladly trade away some of my TV coverage if things could be made better for the players, coaches & fans actually at the tournament sites.

                Thank you for an outstanding post.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                  We've already seen the switch to basically three eastern regionals. Not sticking up for the NCAA but the eastern sites keep putting in bids. Worcester, Manchester, Bridgeport, Providence, Allentown. They keep bidding.

                  I suppose with the changing landscape of big programs not always making the tournament, North Dakota could decide it's not worth hosting. If that happens I think the whole format will finally crumble. Unless there are true midwest/western sites that start bidding again.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                    Maybe the West needs a 6-game/8-team super-regional?
                    If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                    BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                    At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                    Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                      Looking at reported attendance for the past few years, Iím going to challenge the notion that itís a problem for the venues.

                      Reported attendance in recent years hasnít been horrible (other than in Cincinnati and one time in St Paul for some reason). I would tend to trust reported numbers for NCAA regionals (at least for tickets sold) since thereís a huge, NCAA-shaped disincentive for the venues to inflate the numbers.

                      Now, butts in seats and the atmosphere (and concession revenue) could still be an issue, but thatís of minimal concern to the NCAA in terms of how they view profitability of the regional system.

                      Iíll pool the numbers during my lunch break.
                      If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                      BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                      At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                      Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                        Top two getting a double bye? Doubt that ever happens.

                        Realistically I don't think there is much that can be done to help the regionals other than going back to two sites instead of four. Even then attendance is down in the regular season across the board. Even with poor attendance they must be calculating that four sites is still making more money than two would. Not sure. But unless you go back to 12 teams, it doesn't seem like a regional site hosting 8 teams is feasible.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                          I am a fan of having top four home seeds host but obviously that's hard for most arenas to have the space to do that.

                          Always remember, as long as the coaches support neutral sites it will stay that way. I don't want the system to go back to having the same big name teams hosting every year. That gave them a huge advantage and perhaps explains why we are seeing more parity right now in the NCAA tournament. Which is a good thing.
                          tUMD Hockey

                          "And there is a banana running around the DECC." "Well you don't see that every day..."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                            Originally posted by ExileOnDaytonStreet View Post
                            Looking at reported attendance for the past few years, Iím going to challenge the notion that itís a problem for the venues.

                            Reported attendance in recent years hasnít been horrible (other than in Cincinnati and one time in St Paul for some reason). I would tend to trust reported numbers for NCAA regionals (at least for tickets sold) since thereís a huge, NCAA-shaped disincentive for the venues to inflate the numbers.

                            Now, butts in seats and the atmosphere (and concession revenue) could still be an issue, but thatís of minimal concern to the NCAA in terms of how they view profitability of the regional system.

                            Iíll pool the numbers during my lunch break.
                            It isn't a problem for the NCAA. It gets the revenue up front, then a share of any additional revenue generated. The problem is the flagging attendance, and subsequent revenue loss for parking and concessions, hurts the venue. The only way I imagine the host committees see any money is by partnering with local Downtown Associations or Chambers of Commerce or even local governments to promote tourism and related spending in the host city. Some may just take the financial hit for the good of the school, to please a benefactor, for the prestige or some other unknown benefit.

                            I did attendance analysis at the regionals ages ago and it was pretty bleak. It would be interesting to see if the numbers have improved in the intervening years (I'll guess the answer is "No.")

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                              Did a quick look at the last two years, and average for the 24 regional games is 5957.

                              Throw out the 2017 Cincinnati regional and only one game gets below 4000.
                              If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

                              BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


                              At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

                              Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

                                Originally posted by Biddco View Post
                                Always remember, as long as the coaches support neutral sites it will stay that way.
                                I think the coaches like the neutral sites BECAUSE there's no attendance. If you know the crowd isn't going to be for you, at least you take comfort in the fact that it's not going to be against you. If that's the case with coaches, why is the NCAA mouthing platitudes about attendance when the coaches don't really want that?

                                I think a lot of this comes back to not really having a good set of priorities in what we're looking to get out of the regionals. Bracket integrity, minimized travel, maximized attendance, "neutral" sites, host schools, good TV venues...If one is in conflict with another, which one comes out on top? Having no clear answer to that, the NCAA stumbles forward.

                                Comment

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