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  • #91
    Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

    Originally posted by Russell Jaslow View Post
    For a NCAA playoff game, the PA announcer must by neutral. That includes his voice level, excitement, and inflection. The NCAA insists on this, and will instruct the announcer, especially if they are usually related to a particular school or are the home announcer (like in D3).
    That's my understanding as well. But this doesn't conflict with the point I was trying to make.

    Even if a PA Announcer delivers a fully neutral performance, some will perceive bias because of the announcer' regular season affiliation. Or, on isolated occasions, an announcer may actually fail to live up to his obligation of neutrality. Either scenario may cause pushback.

    But I offered this example as "the exception that proves the rule." Generally speaking, support staff at tournaments don't draw objections simply because they usually work at one of the member schools. In other words, excluding the schools from administrative roles at the tournaments wouldn't make them more neutral. Less viable, yes. More neutral, no.
    Last edited by pgb-ohio; 04-20-2017, 06:03 PM.

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    • #92
      Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

      Originally posted by Scarlet View Post
      If you've ever driven on that road you would know that it would be quicker to drive from Allentown to Fargo in the time it takes to go from Hartford to NYC. Or Bridgeport to NYC.
      Remember, there's someone with a master's from Rensselaer in this conversation between you and me, and looking at my wall, it's not you.
      And apparently you've never drive the PA turnpike or through Chicago.
      The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

      North Dakota Hockey:

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      • #93
        Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

        Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post
        It's not a dumb question, but I don't think this line of inquiry leads to any sort of solution. Coaches, players and fans don't care who drafts the bids or who counts the gate receipts. Someone might object to the presence of the "home" PA Announcer, but that's about it. The dilemma is still going to be the same. Due to the geography of the West, good attendance numbers usually require a partisan crowd -- no matter who's serving as the maître de.

        Suppose you did cut the schools out of the bidding process and the support roles. At present, most of those functions are being performed by people on university salaries. Push those costs on the venues/promoters, and bidding becomes even less attractive..
        Not meaning to argue with you pgb (done enough of that in the past ), but are you sure of the bolded statement? Or maybe tell us exactly what the host (school) does that's really expensive for the host (venue)? I have to believe that, for example, the Worcester bid itself is pretty much the same from year to year, and they’re staffed to accommodate events larger than an NCAA regional. And there’ve been many examples posted above of schools that are nowhere close to FF venues “hosting”, so evidently hosting doesn’t require close proximity.

        It does seem to me that getting rid of the school host could accomplish some good by removing the current requirement that if a host school makes the tournament, they have to be sent to the region they host. For example, this year, the NCAA could have sent Providence College to some other regional if they thought it was unfair to Harvard to have to play a lower seeded Providence College in Providence. Or, in the Fargo/Sioux Falls example, if UND made the tournament as a fourth seed, the NCAA could send UND to another regional. Of course if they’re really concerned with attendance, they might choose not to do this, but at least it gives them a choice.

        Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
        Here is my breakdown of neutral venues:
        CO: Denver, Loveland
        ND: Fargo
        SD: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
        NE: Omaha, Ralston, Lincoln, Kearney
        MN: St Paul, Theif River Falls, Minneapolis
        IA: Sioux City, Waterloo, Des Moines, Urbandale, Dubuque, Cedar Rapids
        WI: Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Milwaukee
        MO: St Louis, Independence, Kansas City
        IL: Moline, Rockford, Rosemont, Bloomington, Chicago
        MI: Kalamazoo, Muskegon, Grand Rapids, Plymouth, Saginaw, Flint, Detroit
        OH: Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Columbus, Youngstown
        IN: Indianapolis, Fort Wayne
        PA (Apparently): Johnstown, Reading, Allentown, Hershey, Wilke-Barre, Erie, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia
        WV: Wheeling

        Notes:
        Strike through - too small
        underlined - too big
        I was going to respond in the other thread, but I’ll respond here. I assume by “too small” you mean that they don’t satisfy the current 5,000 capacity requirement. I don’t understand why this requirement exists (at least in the west). Why have a 5,000 capacity requirement, if you never draw anywhere near to 5,000 fans? Now many smaller venues may fail because of “amenities” requirements or lack of convenient hotels, but it seems to me the 5,000 capacity doesn’t make sense in the west.

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        • #94
          Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

          Originally posted by CLS View Post
          I was going to respond in the other thread, but I’ll respond here. I assume by “too small” you mean that they don’t satisfy the current 5,000 capacity requirement. I don’t understand why this requirement exists (at least in the west). Why have a 5,000 capacity requirement, if you never draw anywhere near to 5,000 fans? Now many smaller venues may fail because of “amenities” requirements or lack of convenient hotels, but it seems to me the 5,000 capacity doesn’t make sense in the west.
          yes, it's bc they're below the 5k. The reason is bc the NCAA has not chosen to differentiate between east and west. That is part of the broken system.
          Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

          Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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          • #95
            Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

            Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
            Here is my breakdown of neutral venues:
            CO: Denver, Loveland
            ND: Fargo
            SD: Sioux Falls, Rapid City
            NE: Omaha, Ralston, Lincoln, Kearney
            MN: St Paul, Theif River Falls, Minneapolis
            IA: Sioux City, Waterloo, Des Moines, Urbandale, Dubuque, Cedar Rapids
            WI: Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Milwaukee
            MO: St Louis, Independence, Kansas City
            IL: Moline, Rockford, Rosemont, Bloomington, Chicago
            MI: Kalamazoo, Muskegon, Grand Rapids, Plymouth, Saginaw, Flint, Detroit
            OH: Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Columbus, Youngstown
            IN: Indianapolis, Fort Wayne
            PA (Apparently): Johnstown, Reading, Allentown, Hershey, Wilke-Barre, Erie, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia
            WV: Wheeling

            Notes:
            Strike through - too small
            underlined - too big
            On the one hand, I'd relish the 3 mile drive to the Tyson Event Center in Sioux City to watch some NCAA action. On the other hand, I'd be pretty lonely once I got there. I like your outside the box thinking in including USHL and ECHL venues like Sioux City. Bloomington, Rapid City, Loveland, etc., but I question how much college hockey interest there is in those places. In some rare instances (like with UMD having 5 former Sioux City Musketeers on their roster this year), you might be able to strike gold in one of these places, but by and large, most USHL fans' college hockey interest is limited to seeing how some of their old favorite players are doing. And as far as ECHL fans interest in college hockey, Toledo is an ECHL town, and we've seen how that works out.

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            • #96
              Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

              Originally posted by purpleinnebraska View Post
              On the one hand, I'd relish the 3 mile drive to the Tyson Event Center in Sioux City to watch some NCAA action. On the other hand, I'd be pretty lonely once I got there. I like your outside the box thinking in including USHL and ECHL venues like Sioux City. Bloomington, Rapid City, Loveland, etc., but I question how much college hockey interest there is in those places. In some rare instances (like with UMD having 5 former Sioux City Musketeers on their roster this year), you might be able to strike gold in one of these places, but by and large, most USHL fans' college hockey interest is limited to seeing how some of their old favorite players are doing. And as far as ECHL fans interest in college hockey, Toledo is an ECHL town, and we've seen how that works out.
              my goal wasn't to be outside the box, my goal was to list all venues that fit the neutral requirement in the "West/Midwest" that I could find easily. Just about any USHL/ECHL/AHL arena should meet most of those requirements if it has 5000 capacity. This list just goes to show how few options there are in the places where college hockey fans are. If the West could get to a point where there were at least 3 successful regionals, we'd be ok.

              If you could get the west regional alternating between the Xcel in St Paul and where ever North Dakota wants to host (either Fargo or Sioux Falls). I personally prefer Sioux Falls bc its bigger and would be easier to get tickets (I think).

              Then you just need to find one more venue that works. I would think if Wisconsin continues to return to previous form, we could see the Badgers hosting in Madison at Alliant Energy Center. That just leaves one regional to fill every other year.

              Most likely options: Cincinnati, Allentown, somewhere in Michigan hosted by Mich. or Western? I could also see one of the NCHC teams seeing if Target Center is up for it in a year where its not at Xcel.

              On another note, what are typical USHL ticket prices?
              Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

              Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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              • #97
                Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post

                On another note, what are typical USHL ticket prices?
                In Sioux City, we only have an upper deck on one end, and it's closed for all but the biggest games, so I'm not sure what the prices are there. But for an adult in the lower bowl, you can walk up at game time and get a seat for $16-20. And yes, that does mean that NCAA prices would also be "sticker shock" for USHL fans.

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                • #98
                  Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                  Originally posted by purpleinnebraska View Post
                  In Sioux City, we only have an upper deck on one end, and it's closed for all but the biggest games, so I'm not sure what the prices are there. But for an adult in the lower bowl, you can walk up at game time and get a seat for $16-20. And yes, that does mean that NCAA prices would also be "sticker shock" for USHL fans.
                  idk, the Cincinnati regional was $40 all-session so for 3 games...I guess that could be observed as sticker shock, especially when combined with the inability to leave between games.
                  Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                  Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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                  • #99
                    Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                    Originally posted by CLS View Post
                    Not meaning to argue with you pgb (done enough of that in the past ), but are you sure of the bolded statement? Or maybe tell us exactly what the host (school) does that's really expensive for the host (venue)? I have to believe that, for example, the Worcester bid itself is pretty much the same from year to year, and they’re staffed to accommodate events larger than an NCAA regional. And there’ve been many examples posted above of schools that are nowhere close to FF venues “hosting”, so evidently hosting doesn’t require close proximity.
                    Very surprised by this response. But maybe we've just unearthed yet another fundamental difference between the Eastern experience and the Western experience. Sometimes I get the feeling it's a wonder we can talk at all.

                    As a preface, let's remember that in any sort of business partnership, a lot of the particulars are negotiable. That certainly includes deals between a host university and an outside venue. As such, deals will vary from one to the next, geography notwithstanding.

                    Next, let me use OSU Hockey's experience as an illustration. When we hosted the FF in 2005, it was our show. Our people handled communications functions, game management roles, tickets, off-ice officials, the works. OK, that event was on campus. But when OSU Hockey hosted CCHA Playoff games and Holiday tournament games at Nationwide Arena, it was very much the same thing. No doubt some Nationwide staffers had to work those events, but it still very much OSU's show.

                    As another example, I've attended number of tournament games at The X, hosted by the University of Minnesota. Now I don't have the same ties to the MN Dept. of Athletics, so this observation comes from outsider looking in. But as far as I could tell, it was the same situation. Gopher fingerprints were everywhere; same PA announcer, same off-ice officials, and so on.

                    From those experiences and others, I've long assumed that this was the normal situation. But I guess I have to allow for the possibility that this is a normal Western situation, but that things are fundamentally different in the East.

                    Anyhow, in the arrangement I'm used to seeing, the host school provides a lot of sweat equity. The cash value may not be huge, but it isn't trivial either. And don't underestimate the fact that "easy to run" vs. "huge staff headaches" is going to come into play when decision-makers decide which events to take on. For extremely lucrative events, maybe venue management says "never mind, just let us take care of those things." But for events that are just barely viable, the deal may collapse like a house of cards without the sweat equity contributed by the host school.

                    I'll acknowledge that it's highly likely that permanent (or semi-permanent) hosts handle a higher percentage of the work than "one-off" hosts. Maybe that explains some portion of the different experience.

                    Finally, proximity isn't irrelevant, because travel isn't free. But university staff members can and do travel to work at out-of-town locations. Less common, but not particularly unusual.


                    It does seem to me that getting rid of the school host could accomplish some good by removing the current requirement that if a host school makes the tournament, they have to be sent to the region they host. For example, this year, the NCAA could have sent Providence College to some other regional if they thought it was unfair to Harvard to have to play a lower seeded Providence College in Providence. Or, in the Fargo/Sioux Falls example, if UND made the tournament as a fourth seed, the NCAA could send UND to another regional. Of course if they’re really concerned with attendance, they might choose not to do this, but at least it gives them a choice.
                    No need for an overly broad "solution." Just change the current requirement. Schools already host events that their own teams aren't competing in. Example: NCAA Men's Hoops. Eliminating host schools to accomplish this goal would needlessly leave staff resources on the sidelines.

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                    • Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                      Abandon the "national tournament" for the regionals. Rank the "east" 1-8, rank the "west" 1-8, and have 2 regionals in the east, since that works. In the west, have a super regional, with 8 teams, to determine the 2 west teams going to the F4. This can be done permanently in MSP, at either the X or TC, or rotating between the 2. Of course, the NCAA won't don this.
                      Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

                      RIP - Kirby

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                      • Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                        Originally posted by bigblue_dl View Post
                        Abandon the "national tournament" for the regionals. Rank the "east" 1-8, rank the "west" 1-8, and have 2 regionals in the east, since that works. In the west, have a super regional, with 8 teams, to determine the 2 west teams going to the F4. This can be done permanently in MSP, at either the X or TC, or rotating between the 2. Of course, the NCAA won't don this.
                        I do think there is value to that and that Western regionals would do better if we knew that each would be full of 4 western teams vs what we have now...obviously I don't see the super regional happening.
                        Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                        Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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                        • Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                          Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
                          I do think there is value to that and that Western regionals would do better if we knew that each would be full of 4 western teams vs what we have now...obviously I don't see the super regional happening.
                          But what if BOTH The X and Target Center were used, with 4 teams at each?! At least the plan couldn't be immediately torpedoed by militant trainers & equipment managers.

                          OK, I agree that a Super Regional of 6-8 teams isn't happening. But it is a fun thought.

                          Before completely letting go of the idea, I will point out that the "travel certainty" would have real value for Western fans. Suppose that from Day 1 you know you're a Western team, AND that if you qualify for the NCAA tournament it's 100% certain you'll be sent to the Twin Cities. Suddenly planning a trip to the regionals isn't nearly as ridiculous as it is now. You can lock in flights and hotel rooms far in advance, and create a halfway affordable trip.

                          Of course there's the obvious risk that your team won't qualify for the tournament. Want to improve the odds of a successful trip by waiting? Even if a travel decision is made only three weeks in advance, you're in much better shape than with the four days that are currently available. By the three week mark, many of the at-large teams have a pretty good idea of who they are. In contrast, the status quo gives those same "confident frontrunners" only a 1 of 4 chance of correctly predicting their destination.

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                          • Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                            Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post
                            But what if BOTH The X and Target Center were used, with 4 teams at each?! At least the plan couldn't be immediately torpedoed by militant trainers & equipment managers.

                            OK, I agree that a Super Regional of 6-8 teams isn't happening. But it is a fun thought.

                            Before completely letting go of the idea, I will point out that the "travel certainty" would have real value for Western fans. Suppose that from Day 1 you know you're a Western team, AND that if you qualify for the NCAA tournament it's 100% certain you'll be sent to the Twin Cities. Suddenly planning a trip to the regionals isn't nearly as ridiculous as it is now. You can lock in flights and hotel rooms far in advance, and create a halfway affordable trip.

                            Of course there's the obvious risk that your team won't qualify for the tournament. Want to improve the odds of a successful trip by waiting? Even if a travel decision is made only three weeks in advance, you're in much better shape than with the four days that are currently available. By the three week mark, many of the at-large teams have a pretty good idea of who they are. In contrast, the status quo gives those same "confident frontrunners" only a 1 of 4 chance of correctly predicting their destination.
                            I think there would be a ton of value in creating something like that. but to take a step back, if Target Center was interested in doing a regional, I think you could do a lot to fix the west by having a UND, Target Center, Xcel, Madison? rotation. I know that closes out everyone east of lake michigan but...idk
                            If you had Xcel/Target Center alternating years and UND, the 4th could be a wildcard kinda like it is in the east with Manchester, Worcester, and Providence.
                            Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                            Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

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                            • Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                              Originally posted by pgb-ohio View Post
                              But what if BOTH The X and Target Center were used, with 4 teams at each?! At least the plan couldn't be immediately torpedoed by militant trainers & equipment managers.

                              OK, I agree that a Super Regional of 6-8 teams isn't happening. But it is a fun thought.

                              Before completely letting go of the idea, I will point out that the "travel certainty" would have real value for Western fans. Suppose that from Day 1 you know you're a Western team, AND that if you qualify for the NCAA tournament it's 100% certain you'll be sent to the Twin Cities. Suddenly planning a trip to the regionals isn't nearly as ridiculous as it is now. You can lock in flights and hotel rooms far in advance, and create a halfway affordable trip.

                              Of course there's the obvious risk that your team won't qualify for the tournament. Want to improve the odds of a successful trip by waiting? Even if a travel decision is made only three weeks in advance, you're in much better shape than with the four days that are currently available. By the three week mark, many of the at-large teams have a pretty good idea of who they are. In contrast, the status quo gives those same "confident frontrunners" only a 1 of 4 chance of correctly predicting their destination.
                              There is an issue with the Target Center hosting. Depending on the weekend, the Target Center is already booked as it hosts the MSHSL Boys Basketball Tournament on Wed-Sat. There may be years when the tourney is earlier but for the next couple of years it is the last High School tourney and Willliams Arena(Minnesota Basketball Arena)doesn't want the boys tourney but doesn't mind the GBB tourney Also Penn St is the host of the Allentown Regional. The Big 10 is considered a "western league". The other 5(soon to be 6) members were in Western Leagues before the Big 10 formed.

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                              • Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead

                                re: duties of the Regional Host

                                pgb, thanks for your response. My question was a real question, not a challenge. I’m genuinely curious about what hosting involves and what the “sweat equity” includes. I don’t have any experience at all, only observations and assumptions from a distance.

                                For many years, BU was the host at Worcester. Now I understood why BU might do this; it was a big advantage for BU to pretty much control where they went if they made the tournament, which BU generally did, and hockey is the “big dog” at BU. Then I noticed that Holy Cross began hosting, and that was less understandable to me. Other than one David and Goliath moment, Holy Cross has pretty much been a non-entity hockey-wise, and basketball is the big sport there; there’s no hockey equivalent to Bob Cousy and Tommy Heinsohn. If Holy Cross does make the tournament and gets to play in Worcester, it’s highly probable that they’ll play a high seed that’s fairly local and has a bigger fan base, so the home ice advantage isn’t significant.

                                Both BU and Holy Cross have significantly smaller athletic departments than B1G schools, significantly fewer alumni, and significantly lower profile athletic programs. So it seemed to me that if it involved significant effort and/or expense and/or recruiting significant numbers of volunteers, it would be of questionable value for BU to host and a poor investment for Holy Cross. So I assumed that hosting at Worcester was at most a modest effort for the host school and that the venue did most of the work.

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