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UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

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  • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

    Originally posted by Greg Ambrose View Post
    Please don't get me wrong on this. I am not saying that, if Clark started all the games that somehow UNH would be contending for the HE title. But if Umile is looking for either of these guys to be the chosen one, he is barking up the wrong tree. My bottom line is that neither of these goalies should be the anointed one. It bothers me no end that Umile is attempting to do this, especially since there were a few years (1999 and 2002 come to mind) where more accomplished goalies than these two split time equally right into the playoffs.
    Greg, I think we're closer to agreeing on this as a big picture assessment than you seem to think.

    Especially the part in bold above. But if you play the "championship belt" approach where you feel the need to designate your top guy, and to justify some event for sitting him and starting the other guy at some point ... then Tirone has done just enough more often than Clark has when he's gotten his opportunities. If Coach decided to go with a straight rotation now, I wouldn't have a beef with that ... but if past events offer insight into future results, my guess is Tirone would emerge as the top guy (again).

    Maybe Coach Umile watched a lot of WWWF back in the day?

    Or maybe - like me - Coach just favors the more athletic goalie, and arguably that blinds him (us?) to his shortcomings? Give me a choice between Jonathan Quick (Tirone) and Ben Bishop (Clark), and I'm there for Quick. Then again, as a kid I loved Rogie Vachon (Tirone?) and wasn't a huge Ken Dryden (Clark?) fan. Styles can differ, and everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I really like goalies who win big games.

    But with all due respect to you and Dan ... at some point, perceived talents and so-called superior skills need to translate into performance AND results, and sometimes it's about more than pure talent and/or clean technique. Let's not overlook (and undersell) the ability of what many once considered lesser goalies (such as Dom Hasek, and even Terry Sawchuck back before my time) to compete and to get at more pucks in unconventional ways. Or Gerry Cheevers from the Big Bad B's (or Billy Smith, Grant Fuhr, Chris Osgood or Corey Crawford since) who was never ever considered the best at anything ... other than, you know, winning the big games at the end of the season.

    Neither Tirone nor Clark belong anywhere near that discussion ... but at least Tirone has shown an ability to keep his cool and perform in bigger games than Clark, and when the top position has been up for grabs, Tirone has been the one of the two to emerge. If you dismiss these things, go down the "there is no clutch gene" and all minutes are equal, then sure, put them in a rotation and see how it plays out. I just think it's already happened a few times, Tirone has responded better than Clark, and that's a huge clue (to me anyway) as to which of the two I'd need to pick for key games later in the year. But by no means do I think this UNH goalie competition should be over. JMHO.
    Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
    Montreal Expos Forever ...

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    • Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
      Greg, I think we're closer to agreeing on this as a big picture assessment than you seem to think.

      Especially the part in bold above. But if you play the "championship belt" approach where you feel the need to designate your top guy, and to justify some event for sitting him and starting the other guy at some point ... then Tirone has done just enough more often than Clark has when he's gotten his opportunities. If Coach decided to go with a straight rotation now, I wouldn't have a beef with that ... but if past events offer insight into future results, my guess is Tirone would emerge as the top guy (again).

      Maybe Coach Umile watched a lot of WWWF back in the day?

      Or maybe - like me - Coach just favors the more athletic goalie, and arguably that blinds him (us?) to his shortcomings? Give me a choice between Jonathan Quick (Tirone) and Ben Bishop (Clark), and I'm there for Quick. Then again, as a kid I loved Rogie Vachon (Tirone?) and wasn't a huge Ken Dryden (Clark?) fan. Styles can differ, and everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I really like goalies who win big games.

      But with all due respect to you and Dan ... at some point, perceived talents and so-called superior skills need to translate into performance AND results, and sometimes it's about more than pure talent and/or clean technique. Let's not overlook (and undersell) the ability of what many once considered lesser goalies (such as Dom Hasek, and even Terry Sawchuck back before my time) to compete and to get at more pucks in unconventional ways. Or Gerry Cheevers from the Big Bad B's (or Billy Smith, Grant Fuhr, Chris Osgood or Corey Crawford since) who was never ever considered the best at anything ... other than, you know, winning the big games at the end of the season.

      Neither Tirone nor Clark belong anywhere near that discussion ... but at least Tirone has shown an ability to keep his cool and perform in bigger games than Clark, and when the top position has been up for grabs, Tirone has been the one of the two to emerge. If you dismiss these things, go down the "there is no clutch gene" and all minutes are equal, then sure, put them in a rotation and see how it plays out. I just think it's already happened a few times, Tirone has responded better than Clark, and that's a huge clue (to me anyway) as to which of the two I'd need to pick for key games later in the year. But by no means do I think this UNH goalie competition should be over. JMHO.
      I would add Tim Thomas to your once or twice or even thrice "overlooked" list Chuck!
      GO BLUE/GO UNH

      COLLEGE HOCKEY RULES

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      • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

        First of all Chuck - while a small sample size, Clark was phenomenal last season averaging 30+ saves and turning in a 2.00 GAA and a .940 SPCT in two games immediately on the immediate heels of Tirone's 4.00+ GAA through the first four games and the exhibition. FYI, Tirone gave up all four goals against STX while Clark made all six of his saves. It didn't stop Tirone from getting the first four starts of the year, and having to essentially force Umile to pull him after the UMass game...

        You claim Clark has missed his opportunities? Sure, he'd probably like to have played better in 2014 but the difference in team defense over the two halts is absolutely a legitimate factor. His second opportunity last season was a total success cut short. This season he's made one start - not a great effort but better than Tirone's game one and with zero game experience in nearly a year. So I dismiss that he hasn't nailed his opportunities and argue that he almost never gets a fair chance.

        It would have been right for Unile to give him a chance behind a MUCH better team in the second half of 2014 and he owes Clark a fair chance to play in at least a true rotation now. But I have serious doubts he will - of Tirone plays halfway decently against CC and UNH wins I bet he starts the first game the following weekend and probably rides as the #1 until he posts another UMass meltdown.

        If Clark had actually blown opportunities I don't think anyone would be complaining. He has proven he deserves a shot and Tirone has proven he is not the clear number one he is treated as being. Clark should be given an extended look now - it isn't fair for him (or the team) to feel like his PT is riding on every shot against, while Tirone gets chance after chance despite - again - not having played well consistently in two years...!!

        ----

        It's also silly to list the short HOF caliber goalies as an argument for Tirone. Once again, there is a reason those guys stand out so much - they are the exceptions that prove the rule. Bigger goalies are very often better - that's why so many of the better goalies are big. BTW, Quick is three inches taller and nearly 50 lbs heavier than Tirone...
        Last edited by Dan; 10-17-2016, 04:49 PM.
        Live Free or Die!!
        Miami University '03

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        • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

          Prefacing all of this with saying that I have zero dog in this hunt. I just want the best guy in there, the one who gives us the best chance by stopping a few that our at times lackluster D shouldn't have allowed reach him in the first place.

          I don't profess to be a goaltending history or technique buff, so I'll just refer to the numbers....

          Tirone had a DEMONSTRABLY better freshman year than Clark, in basically every statistical category, and in the meat of the HEA schedule that got us pretty darn close to an auto-bid, IIRC.

          That stated, Tirone's sophomore campaign was not especially strong (as Dan points out). Here's the issue with that, though - Clark's body of evidence since 2014 (that's a long time ago) consists of two great games and one to forget. Three games.

          So, we have one goalie with declining numbers year-over-year, and another with an "incomplete" after a rough freshman season. It's hard to (from statistics, anyway), make a strong case for either as a #1. Especially when you can't calibrate for the effects of our defensive play.

          I don't think the decision leads us to the Garden, anyway, so my hope is that we split time to see who really comes forward as the #1. Prior to these guys we've had only two seasons since 2005 in which we truly split duties. Regan and Petrasiak, and then DiGi and DeSmith in 2011-12 (though once DeSmith showed his wares, you could argue that a clear #1 emerged that year).
          Signature line intentionally left blank.

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          • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

            Originally posted by wildcatdc View Post
            Tirone had a DEMONSTRABLY better freshman year than Clark, in basically every statistical category, and in the meat of the HEA schedule that got us pretty darn close to an auto-bid, IIRC.

            That stated, Tirone's sophomore campaign was not especially strong (as Dan points out). Here's the issue with that, though - Clark's body of evidence since 2014 (that's a long time ago) consists of two great games and one to forget. Three games.

            So, we have one goalie with declining numbers year-over-year, and another with an "incomplete" after a rough freshman season. It's hard to (from statistics, anyway), make a strong case for either as a #1. Especially when you can't calibrate for the effects of our defensive play.

            I don't think the decision leads us to the Garden, anyway, so my hope is that we split time to see who really comes forward as the #1. Prior to these guys we've had only two seasons since 2005 in which we truly split duties. Regan and Petrasiak, and then DiGi and DeSmith in 2011-12 (though once DeSmith showed his wares, you could argue that a clear #1 emerged that year).
            Winner right here. My only point beyond this is Coach Umile makes his decision using his filter - not ours. I'm not defending his decision - just that based on his approach to things, I can understand (and I can't criticize) why he's made the decisions he's made. And if he does change his approach tomorrow - I'm fine with that, too.

            The ideas that (1) Clark is clearly a superior goalie, and (2) Clark hasn't had his opportunities, just aren't true. We'll never know what Clark would have done last year after his promising pre-injury stint. Unlucky, yes. But still only two games.

            And I don't think it's "unfair" that any goalie feels PT hinges on every shot against. Just the nature of the position.
            Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
            Montreal Expos Forever ...

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            • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

              Probably neither will be our #1 goalie next season, in any case; just treading water this season.

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              • Originally posted by Snively65 View Post
                Probably neither will be our #1 goalie next season, in any case; just treading water this season.
                Bingo. Could be a DiGi/DeSmith situation until the newcomer takes the reins.
                Signature line intentionally left blank.

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                • Originally posted by Snively65 View Post
                  Probably neither will be our #1 goalie next season, in any case; just treading water this season.
                  You know I wondered when the elephant in the room (Robinson
                  and I don't mean that in a bad way) would show up been thinking about this myself reading these posts 😉
                  Here we go 'Cats!!

                  Comment


                  • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

                    Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
                    My only point beyond this is Coach Umile makes his decision using his filter - not ours. I'm not defending his decision - just that based on his approach to things, I can understand (and I can't criticize) why he's made the decisions he's made.
                    His "filter" has been clouded by senility for years now. I can't believe he still has a job. I'd criticize just about everything the guy has done to the program at this point. I swear you UNH fans are so used to torture you could have put up with whatever they were dishing out at Abu Ghraib prison no problem.
                    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                    Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                    "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                    • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

                      Originally posted by HockeyRef View Post
                      You know I wondered when the elephant in the room (Robinson
                      and I don't mean that in a bad way) would show up been thinking about this myself reading these posts ��
                      Robinson is a backup in the USHL, having played 1 of 7 games.
                      http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...060512017.html
                      The Umile legacy:
                      14-15 8th place,
                      15-16 10th place
                      16-17 10th place
                      17-18 11th place
                      18-19 8th place
                      19-20 9th place
                      20-21 10th place
                      21-22 9th place

                      Comment


                      • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

                        While we're on the subject of goalies, our old friend Connor Hellebuyck in net v. The B's tonight.
                        Signature line intentionally left blank.

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                        • Originally posted by wildcatdc View Post
                          While we're on the subject of goalies, our old friend Connor Hellebuyck in net v. The B's tonight.
                          Yup. Dan's prototypical goalie!
                          GO BLUE/GO UNH

                          COLLEGE HOCKEY RULES

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dan View Post
                            Pretty good post by you too - but if you did ever watch the two warm up or compared them to goalies around college hockey you would be astounded at how easily the team picks corners on Tirone over and over - it is absolutely proof of how much net space he shows to shooters as compared to other goalies. Perhaps that is why some think thy UNH boasts so many of the best shooters in the league...

                            Clark is better, in large part, yes, simply because of his size and style. It's a huge factor that cannot be ignored...
                            I find the discussion amusing about who is the better goalie. Unless this defense gets better it won't matter.

                            Comment


                            • Re: UNH Wildcats 2016-17 -- We're Going to Have a Hockey Season Here!!

                              Originally posted by wildcatdc View Post
                              While we're on the subject of goalies, our old friend Connor Hellebuyck in net v. The B's tonight.
                              Uh, oh; now we are not only posting about JvR's and TvR's NHL careers, but also another HEA team goalie's NHL career.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Snively65 View Post
                                Uh, oh; now we are not only posting about JvR's and TvR's NHL careers, but also another HEA team goalie's NHL career.
                                Well, if we want to get on a roll, Daniel Winnik was the headline of the Washington Post sports section yesterday, having potted both goals in their home opener 2-1 win. I elected not to post about it when I saw it at breakfast, but will do so now just fan the flames!
                                Signature line intentionally left blank.

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