Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

[Marmot]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

GreenCoat, on your point of a few days ago I think we are certainly not wrong to have higher expectations than the reality we have seen over the past decade plus. I didn't realize just how poorly we have fared against upper echelon opponents. I suppose that would explain how even when we have a good record we rarely make the NCAAs and never win a Whitelaw or an NCAA tourney game.

Unfortunately, the harsh truth of the numbers changes my outlook from having very little hope to having almost no hope.

[Marmot]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

And I also agree with the point that the effort and amount of funds raised to build the new rink certainly point in the direction that the school takes having a competitive hockey program seriously.

But that's not enough. At a certain point in time you have to take an unflinching look at the coaching staff and make an honest determination whether or not they are the ones to lead the program to success.

[Marmot]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

Frankly, the more I look at it the more I see the comparison to Tim Taylor's tenure at Yale.

[Marmot]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

That said, with respect to Teacher Bill's comment about Wagner and Johnston leaving early because they were concerned about the program, I'm not so sure.

Wagner was coming off a 57 point season as a sophomore. The team was above .500, and we had an excellent recruiting class coming in. The prospects for the future at that time looked good. So, it's hard to say with certainty why he turned pro (thought he'd progressed enough at the collegiate level and was ready? Needed [or wanted] the money?) but I don't think it's because he thought the program was headed in the wrong direction.

As for Johnston, he had a great tryout camp with the Canadiens after his junior year and they offered him a deal. Unlike Wagner who was a draft pick, Johnston's future after Colgate was unclear. So, I can definitely understand why he turned pro. And we were returning a stacked team for what would have been his senior year, a twenty plus win team for the two preceding seasons. So, again I don't think he turned pro for fear the program was cratering.

However, notwithstanding those two particular situations, I think the biggest problem with the program is getting quality players in the first place. In fact, this is the very crux of the problem.

So, what is the solution?

[Marmot]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

In a bit of more positive news, I'm starting to re-evaluate my opinion on Nick Austin. I think he was originally listed as a forward, but he's playing defense in the USHL which makes his 13 point total for the year look a bit better.

But here's what made me even more optimistic about him: he was the 20th overall pick in the USHL draft this year. And as the USHL is the best feeder of future NCAA players I'm taking comfort in the fact he was highly regarded by that league.

With him, Quillan and Cosgrove we have three solid looking d-man recruits. About that scoring though . . .

[TheGreenCoat]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

kind of interesting that I'm seeing several references to Tim Taylor, Yale's hockey coach from the late 1970s to the 2005-06 season...I never mentioned it here - not thinking it quite appropriate or "on all fours" - but I described our situation at Colgate as potentially being "Tim Taylor Disease", i.e., that of a good college coach, a good man and a relatively successful coach, staying behind the bench several years beyond what one's year-by-year record would dictate. Taylor did a great job in turning around that was perhaps at the time the worst ECAC team throughout the 1970s (at least until 1976-77). He remained relatively successful until the late 1990s (his 1997-98 team went 23-9-3, went to the NCAAs) until he was fired eight years later. His contributions to Yale hockey are beyond argument, yet he finished his career with an overall record of 337-433-35. In large measure this does understate his overall success; his success was in the face of Yale ADs who were not hockey fans and/or provided little support to Taylor's recruiting efforts (Dr. Frank Ryan - yes, that Frank Ryan of the 1964 world championship Browns - as an example). So Allain probably came in with a better support system, yes, but also a new approach (USHL experience) to raising the level of the Yale hockey program. This long-winded intro is meant to compare our current situation to that of Yale's in 2005, 2006, etc. I frankly have no answer since, despite being a member of the Silver Puck Council for almost 40 years, I get very little (actually ZERO) input from the very organization that I have been very, very loyal to for these many years. I think Jerry Quill is a great guy, but to be honest, I'd rather have an energetic 50-year old raising $$$ and raising awareness of the program. And when I make a donation - four figures - I'd like to get a little more feedback than a robo-signed thank you note. These are optics, I know, but are they also reflective of an attitude that pervades the Hamilton, NY ivory towers in general? I have no answers for MARMOT, other than it comes down to recruiting and the Moore/Dickson team were **** good at it. We have a coach who, by all objective measurement, can coach. But as we all know there is more to coaching than getting the best out of the players we can put on the ice. Even at age 66 I am willing to wait before I lose faith in DV, but the sands are running through the hour glass, not by my timetable, but by any objective analysis of the last two (and last ELEVEN) years...

[TheGreenCoat]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

and losing players early is a short-run problem, but probably a long-term positive...one must ask the question: would Baun and Johnston have left early if the classes of 2017 and 2018 contained some high-level talent? Maybe/maybe not...when you commit to Union, Q-Pac, Yale, Harvard, my guess is that you feel you have a real chance of making the NCAAs and possibly the NCAA Frozen Four. To be frank, I do not have confidence in our current AD (I really don't know about our new President) and our massive Board of Trustees to really put a market in the sand here. International students coming to Colgate? Of course. Increased sensitivity to all groups/all the time? Of course. But we spend $38 million to build a new rink and still offer only seventeen full grant-in-aids? Does anybody have any idea how much additional $$$ came to Providence and Union for winning NCAA hockey titles? I do...Yale doesn't matter, but the idea that real success on the athletic field is not a good investment is ridiculous on its face...

[sshablak]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

Congrats to Kulevich who signed an AHL contract with the Manitoba Moose of the AHL.

[CU13]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

Congrats, also, to Tim Harrison who signed with the Adirondack Thunder, joining former teammate Kevin Lough '16 and congrats to Brett Corkey who signed with the Wheeling Nailers. Go 'Gate!!

[ColSkate65]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

And congrats to Kulevich also for making the All-ECAC 3rd team!

[AspyDad]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

I think the world of your coach. I don’t know your situation but we just lost Appert at RPI who is a good guy like DV. We have a terrible AD and College Prez. They care very little about the program and it shows in the facility we play in and the resources the program is given. If admission is stingy at the Gate like it is at RPI in letting players in then that is a problem. If you get rid of DV who do you get? RPI will be getting Ben Barr who is a young guy (like Appert was) and reputation as a good recruiter (like Appert had at Denver). It will be a wash at RPI because we can’t get anybody in the door whose an impact player. Stick with Donnie. You guys conduct yourselves like fans. You’re not hysterical or mean-spirited. Credit to all of you.

[AspyDad]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

and losing players early is a short-run problem, but probably a long-term positive...one must ask the question: would Baun and Johnston have left early if the classes of 2017 and 2018 contained some high-level talent? Maybe/maybe not...when you commit to Union, Q-Pac, Yale, Harvard, my guess is that you feel you have a real chance of making the NCAAs and possibly the NCAA Frozen Four. To be frank, I do not have confidence in our current AD (I really don't know about our new President) and our massive Board of Trustees to really put a market in the sand here. International students coming to Colgate? Of course. Increased sensitivity to all groups/all the time? Of course. But we spend $38 million to build a new rink and still offer only seventeen full grant-in-aids? Does anybody have any idea how much additional $$$ came to Providence and Union for winning NCAA hockey titles? I do...Yale doesn't matter, but the idea that real success on the athletic field is not a good investment is ridiculous on its face...

Timmy and Jerry ran the league for so long. Good peeps.

[TheGreenCoat]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

appreciate the above comments...actually both Colgate and RPI have been through a tough decade...never was quite sure why RPI dumped Fridgen when it did, but it did seem time to make a change now...our President is quite new, was a very good athlete at Notre Dame (swimmer), but, again, if you're not going to be competitive, truly competitive, in recruiting now in college hockey the future will be more of the same. I've always tried to be careful about specifically criticizing DV because there is no doubt in my mind he's a very good on and off the ice coach and a good guy. We do have to deal with an Academic Index that is virtually identical to the Ivies, but making a commitment to being a serious NCAA team every year doesn't stop with the construction of a new rink ($38M)...it should be a starting point and, as yet, the early results are not particularly encouraging. Wish you guys well at RPI; your hockey tradition should make it imperative for anybody with a brain in his/her head to demand improvement ASAP...

[CU13]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

Watching the ECAC Championship game on Time Warner SNY 45.

[Marmot]

Re: Colgate 2016-17 A New Beginning

In happier news, stats from last night's AJHL playoff tilts:

McKechney(Brooks)- 1 G, 2 A
Vachon(Brooks)- 2 G
Quillan(Whitecourt)- 2 A

Looks like *hopefully!* some talent on the way.