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  • Re: Average Men's Attendance

    Originally posted by DavidNardolillo View Post
    My two cents on the Gophers' hockey attendance: When I matriculated to Minnesota for law school in 2004, I signed up for the hockey season ticket waiting list just in case I stuck around after graduating. I recall that my number was in the 3000s. In late spring 2010 (I think, maybe the year before), I got an email saying that I could purchase season tickets. I soon saw why: prices had been raised and most seats required an additional donation of $250 to $500 per season, per seat. The instant vanishing of the waiting list made it clear that fans had revolted. I believe that decision, combined with the move to the Big Ten, which disrupted longstanding (and well-attended) annual rivalries with UMD, UND, SCSU, and Mankato has had a lasting negative impact on the current attendance figures. A lack of relevance in post-season play has only compounded the problem.

    Student indifference to attendance at sporting events is a perennial problem now for most schools, but I have to say that Minnesota always had issues here, and not just with hockey.

    I think the first step to improving attendance should be dropping the additional per-seat donations for season ticket holders. I understand they have been lowered recently, but they should be completely abolished.
    I think it had more to do with seating reassignment, the big ten, and ****ty performance. The prices hurt. A lot. But it wasn’t just pricing.
    Code:
    As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
    College Hockey 6       College Football 0
    BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
    Originally posted by SanTropez
    May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
    Originally posted by bigblue_dl
    I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
    Originally posted by Kepler
    When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
    He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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    • Originally posted by BG816 View Post
      Thanks for the work on the spreadsheet! So much interesting data, like St. Louis averaging over 7,500/game for a season.

      As a BG guy, and thus a MAC fan, one omission stuck out: Kent State. I don’t remember the lifespan of their program, but Nancy Cartwright was the university’s president who killed that program. Years later, as president at Bowling Green, she tried to do the same thing to Falcon hockey. BG’s saving grace was that they had, and obviously still have, a strong history and influential alumni. I remember the joy surrounding Bowling Green hockey when Cartwright retired.

      I don’t mean to nitpick! Kent State hockey certainly isn’t something even a diehard college hockey guy is expected to recall. Lol
      You might want to do a little more research on the BG situation. Your "facts" are a little twisted up.

      Comment


      • Re: Average Men's Attendance

        Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
        I think it had more to do with seating reassignment, the big ten, and ****ty performance. The prices hurt. A lot. But it wasn’t just pricing.
        .
        Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
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        • Originally posted by Split-N View Post
          You're a clever little guy
          No, I’m just a geek who likes YouTube and video games.
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          I spell Failure with UAF

          Originally posted by UAFIceAngel
          But let's be real...There are 40 some other teams and only two alaskan teams...the day one of us wins something big will be the day I transfer to UAA
          Originally posted by Doyle Woody
          Best sign by a visting Seawolf fan Friday went to a young man who held up a piece of white poster board that read: "YOU CAN'T SPELL FAILURE WITHOUT UAF."

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          • Re: Average Men's Attendance

            Originally posted by Rightnut View Post
            Sorry. I didn't know the PC police were on the case here. I didn't realize geek was no longer allowed. I should have said nerd.
            What's the matter? Did a nerd beat you at chess in high school?


            Powers &8^]

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            • Re: Average Men's Attendance

              Originally posted by DavidNardolillo View Post
              My two cents on the Gophers' hockey attendance: When I matriculated to Minnesota for law school in 2004, I signed up for the hockey season ticket waiting list just in case I stuck around after graduating. I recall that my number was in the 3000s. In late spring 2010 (I think, maybe the year before), I got an email saying that I could purchase season tickets. I soon saw why: prices had been raised and most seats required an additional donation of $250 to $500 per season, per seat. The instant vanishing of the waiting list made it clear that fans had revolted. I believe that decision, combined with the move to the Big Ten, which disrupted longstanding (and well-attended) annual rivalries with UMD, UND, SCSU, and Mankato has had a lasting negative impact on the current attendance figures. A lack of relevance in post-season play has only compounded the problem.

              Student indifference to attendance at sporting events is a perennial problem now for most schools, but I have to say that Minnesota always had issues here, and not just with hockey.

              I think the first step to improving attendance should be dropping the additional per-seat donations for season ticket holders. I understand they have been lowered recently, but they should be completely abolished.
              Very well said!
              MTU: Three time NCAA champions.

              It never get's easier, you just go faster. -Greg Lemond

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              • Re: Average Men's Attendance

                I blame HDTV as well. The first time I saw an NFL game in HD, I knew I’d never attend a game in person again. College sports were once a way for someone to watch a game and follow a team at a lower price point than the pros. Now if watching the Wild in your living room is actually as good or better than watching in person, why go out to a college game at all? There’s a high def pro game right in your living room.
                Huskies are very intelligent and trainable. Huskies make an excellent jogging companion, as long as it is not too hot. Grooming is minimal; bathing is normally unnecessary.
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                • Re: Average Men's Attendance

                  Originally posted by geezer View Post
                  I blame HDTV as well. The first time I saw an NFL game in HD, I knew I’d never attend a game in person again. College sports were once a way for someone to watch a game and follow a team at a lower price point than the pros. Now if watching the Wild in your living room is actually as good or better than watching in person, why go out to a college game at all? There’s a high def pro game right in your living room.
                  Very true, and a growing problem for attendance everywhere.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Average Men's Attendance

                    Are we ignoring the fact that "first to three wins" games are pretty dull?

                    GFM
                    Geof F. Morris
                    UAH BSE MAE 2002
                    UAHHockey.com

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                    • Originally posted by gfmorris View Post
                      Are we ignoring the fact that "first to three wins" games are pretty dull?

                      GFM
                      I wish someone had explained that “first one to 3 rule” to Providence last March.

                      But yes, I agree with you that a grab and clutch, 2-1 game is not exactly great entertainment

                      Comment


                      • Re: Average Men's Attendance

                        Originally posted by gfmorris View Post
                        Are we ignoring the fact that "first to three wins" games are pretty dull?

                        GFM
                        Stats by themselves stats really can't identify if a game is entertaining or dull, but I don't think that its true for most games. That said, I have been working on obtaining more granular stats about scoring in games to try and determine if the first to 3 goals is truly the best possible stat to use. This season there have been 497 games (excluding exhibitions) through today (22 December) and 401 of them have had at least one team score 3+ goals (80.7%), while just 110 have had both teams score 3+ goals (22.1%). The overall record for the first team to score three goals is 359-19-23 0.924, but of the 110 games in which both teams scored 3+ goals the record for the team that scored the third goal first is just 68-19-23 0.723. A further breakdown of scoring shows that a 3-0 lead is near insurmountable (126-1-4 0.977)*, while a 3-1 (145-9-9 0.917) and 3-2 (88-9-10 0.869) lead are also pretty hard to overcome. Another 26 teams that trailed (3 by 3-0, 9 by 3-1 and 14 by 3-2) were able to tie the game up before ultimately losing, and one team was able to take a 4-3 lead after trailing 3-2 before losing 5-4.

                        Originally posted by purpleinnebraska View Post
                        I wish someone had explained that “first one to 3 rule” to Providence last March.

                        But yes, I agree with you that a grab and clutch, 2-1 game is not exactly great entertainment
                        Providence had already learned the exception to the rule two weeks before when they overcame a 3-1 BC lead in game 1 of the HE quarterfinals and then lost after leading 3-2 in game 2 of the HE quarterfinals. Providence also lost a game (4-3 to BU) after leading 3-2, and were tied twice after taking a 3-1 lead during the regular season. Maybe Minnesota State should have paid attention to the fact that Providence was well aware that scoring the third goal first didn't guarantee a win.

                        Sean

                        * UAH is the only team this season to lose after leading a game 3-0 (UAH did win the only other game that they lead 3-0). BU is one of the 4 (along with Bemidji, the only team to not win after taking a 4-0 lead) to end in a tie after leading 3-0.
                        Last edited by Sean Pickett; 12-22-2019, 10:02 PM.
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                        • Originally posted by Sean Pickett View Post
                          Stats by themselves stats really can't identify if a game is entertaining or dull, but I don't think that its true for most games. That said, I have been working on obtaining more granular stats about scoring in games to try and determine if the first to 3 goals is truly the best possible stat to use. This season there have been 497 games (excluding exhibitions) through today (22 December) and 401 of them have had at least one team score 3+ goals (80.7%), while just 110 have had both teams score 3+ goals (22.1%). The overall record for the first team to score three goals is 359-19-23 0.924, but of the 110 games in which both teams scored 3+ goals the record for the team that scored the third goal first is just 68-19-23 0.723. A further breakdown of scoring shows that a 3-0 lead is near insurmountable (126-1-4 0.977)*, while a 3-1 (145-9-9 0.917) and 3-2 (88-9-10 0.869) lead are also pretty hard to overcome. Another 26 teams that trailed (3 by 3-0, 9 by 3-1 and 14 by 3-2) were able to tie the game up before ultimately losing, and one team was able to take a 4-3 lead after trailing 3-2 before losing 5-4.

                          Providence had already learned the exception to the rule two weeks before when they overcame a 3-1 BC lead in game 1 of the HE quarterfinals and then lost after leading 3-2 in game 2 of the HE quarterfinals. Providence also lost a game (4-3 to BU) after leading 3-2, and were tied twice after taking a 3-1 lead during the regular season. Maybe Minnesota State should have paid attention to the fact that Providence was well aware that scoring the third goal first didn't guarantee a win.

                          Sean

                          * UAH is the only team this season to lose after leading a game 3-0 (UAH did win the only other game that they lead 3-0). BU is one of the 4 (along with Bemidji, the only team to not win after taking a 4-0 lead) to end in a tie after leading 3-0.
                          Excellent stats! Thanks, Sean.

                          I still enjoy attending college hockey games in person for socializing with friends that I do lot see much otherwise.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Average Men's Attendance

                            Originally posted by Snively65 View Post
                            Excellent stats! Thanks, Sean.

                            I still enjoy attending college hockey games in person for socializing with friends that I do lot see much otherwise.
                            Thanks, I have quite a few more stats that show that the 'first to 3' is one of the best indicators, but I'm working on other expanding the information from other seasons I already researched and I also want to research additional seasons. One stat that I have looked at (and is easy to research and compile) which actually may play a factor in attendance is home team records. This season home teams have only a 53% winning percentage (231-202-54), the lowest of any season I've researched:
                            1975-76 - 345-205-18, 0.623
                            1984-85 - 502-315-34, 0.610
                            1987-88 - 519-294-47, 0.631
                            1998-99 - 521-349-89, 0.590
                            2008-09 - 525-363-123, 0.580
                            2012-13 - 527-380-130, 0.571
                            2013-14 - 525-393-107, 0.564
                            2014-15 - 526-389-107, 0.567
                            2015-16 - 512-388-136, 0.560
                            2016-17 - 511-411-122, 0.548
                            2017-18 - 540-414-115, 0.559
                            2018-19 - 542-409-100, 0.563
                            2019-20 - 231-202-54, 0.530

                            It's only a rough correlation with lower attendance, but does point to a possible contributing factor. Each team's home record vs attendance would have to be looked at to see if there is a correlation at a team level.

                            Sean
                            Last edited by Sean Pickett; 12-23-2019, 07:13 PM.
                            Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
                            Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

                            BU Hockey Games
                            BU Hockey highlights and extras
                            NCAA Hockey Financials
                            Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
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                            Comment


                            • Re: Average Men's Attendance

                              It’s more complicated than that. Obviously. You have to look at the choices fans have relative to the population.

                              The twin cities has every imaginable sports team for a market. All four big pro teams; pro soccer; D1 football, basketball, women’s basketball, women’s volleyball, men’s hockey; the highest theaters per capita outside of New York City. The most James Beard nominations in the Midwest outside of Chicago. A robust high school hockey community maybe only rivaled by Texas football and Indiana basketball. All while only being a fraction the size the other markets who have anything remotely similar. NYC, Boston, LA, Dallas/FW, Houston, Chicago.

                              How do you evaluate men’s attendance with record without looking at how the entertainment economy has evolved in that market? Almost impossible.


                              All of that said, I would be moderately shocked to find there isn’t a medium to strong correlation between winning percent vs attendance when grouped by completion with other entertainment options. Minnesota used to be one of the crowns in college football. We haven’t won **** since the Vikings came to town and sucked every dollar out of football spending.

                              ETA: Another thing that might be interesting is factors like distance to average opponent. Length of time in a conference. Cost of tickets.
                              Code:
                              As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                              College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                              BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                              Originally posted by SanTropez
                              May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                              Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                              I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                              Originally posted by Kepler
                              When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                              He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                              Comment


                              • Re: Average Men's Attendance

                                Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                                It’s more complicated than that. Obviously. You have to look at the choices fans have relative to the population.

                                The twin cities has every imaginable sports team for a market. All four big pro teams; pro soccer; D1 football, basketball, women’s basketball, women’s volleyball, men’s hockey; the highest theaters per capita outside of New York City. The most James Beard nominations in the Midwest outside of Chicago. A robust high school hockey community maybe only rivaled by Texas football and Indiana basketball. All while only being a fraction the size the other markets who have anything remotely similar. NYC, Boston, LA, Dallas/FW, Houston, Chicago.

                                How do you evaluate men’s attendance with record without looking at how the entertainment economy has evolved in that market? Almost impossible.


                                All of that said, I would be moderately shocked to find there isn’t a medium to strong correlation between winning percent vs attendance when grouped by completion with other entertainment options. Minnesota used to be one of the crowns in college football. We haven’t won **** since the Vikings came to town and sucked every dollar out of football spending.

                                ETA: Another thing that might be interesting is factors like distance to average opponent. Length of time in a conference. Cost of tickets.

                                It seems like a bit of a cop out for those schools in a large metro area. I get there are more options, but there are also more people for each of those options to pull from. For example, if you consider that the Gophers current average attendance is 8283 (yes, I know that's tickets counted not seats occupied, but that's the only consistent state we have to go on for all teams nationally. That's roughly 0.25% of the population of the MSP metro area. Compare that to UND which has a average attendance of 11,171 (or 10.9% of the population). Or Mankato which is at 4,484 (4.4% of the population). Generally speaking, the amount of options available are comparable with the level of population. I understand that options may have something to do with it, but it seems like that's a convenient excuse for MN.
                                Mess with the bull, you get the horns.

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