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How to improve the Pairwise

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  • davyd83
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by Superfly100 View Post
    Building on the top two from each conf tournament, but with a twist...

    Drop from four regionals to two with set conferences in each regional. NCHC, WCHA, and BI6(7) in the West and HE, ECAC, and AHA in the East. Two At-Large selections for each regional. Tournaments held at a central location for each Regional.

    It would take the PWR out of the picture, build on inter-conference rivalries, and stoke the East vs West rivalry.
    Two Eight team regionals? Now find the facility that has dressing rooms and training spaces for 8 teams, practice time, morning skate time and ice time for six games all at reasonable time over a 3 or 4 day window. Now, make sure that barn will have great ice after 8 full practices, 12 pregame skates and six games.

    Leave a comment:


  • LtPowers
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by Gr8Sk8M8 View Post
    NU beat Harvard and NU won the conference. NU had to travel ~900 miles and play the top seed in the bracket; Harvard, who won nothing, had to travel 40 and was seeded 3rd. Yale didn't get out of their quarterfinals and got rewarded with Albany and a 3rd seed.
    Yeah, it's almost like the regular season and the conference tournament both mean something. Imagine that.


    Powers &8^]

    Leave a comment:


  • FlagDUDE08
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    You replace this system with another system. The next year, we see another one of these stupid threads about ways to improve that system.

    Suck it up. You know the formula. If you're really worried about it, how about focusing more on winning your league, which is the sure fire way of getting into the national tournament.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gr8Sk8M8
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    At the risk of being redundant, a conference winner needs to be seeded higher than any other team within its conference outside of a Top 4 finish.

    This is why Pairwise is an absolutely moronic system...there are several teams in Major League Baseball that have won Division titles but who absolutely ---ed the bed against last place teams. Using a Pairwise system, in years past, the Red Sox, Yankees and Cardinals would have not gotten a playoff berth in a year that they won the World Series.

    NU beat Harvard and NU won the conference. NU had to travel ~900 miles and play the top seed in the bracket; Harvard, who won nothing, had to travel 40 and was seeded 3rd. Yale didn't get out of their quarterfinals and got rewarded with Albany and a 3rd seed.

    Those two examples show the absolute absurdity of Pairwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Superfly100
    replied
    Originally posted by Jasma View Post
    Changing the NCAA tourney format might liven it up.
    One scenario:
    A 16 team NCAA Tourney, as it is now.
    The finalists of the 6 leagues make the tourney - 12 teams
    There are 4 at-large selections made by the committee
    The committee then seeds the teams and places them in the four regionals
    The 4 at-large berths help protect strong teams that get upset in early-round conference tournament games.
    This format does add one more Atlantic Hockey team to the NCAAs, but it also livens up the conference tourneys. Even the finals could be important for seeding.
    Oh, and move the regionals to smaller venues. this might be easier to do in the Northeast, but I'm not familiar with midwest and western cities with smaller arenas.
    In the northeast you have cities like Bridgeport, Trenton, Syracuse, Glens Falls, Rochester, Manchester that seat fewer than places like Albany, Providence and Worcester. 4,000 to 6,000 fannies in a building that seat 8-10,000 is a lot better than what we have seen in the larger buildings and cities.
    Flaws in this I'm sure, but something needs to change. There is not enough excitement at most of the conference and regional tournaments the way it is set-up now.
    Building on the top two from each conf tournament, but with a twist...

    Drop from four regionals to two with set conferences in each regional. NCHC, WCHA, and BI6(7) in the West and HE, ECAC, and AHA in the East. Two At-Large selections for each regional. Tournaments held at a central location for each Regional.

    It would take the PWR out of the picture, build on inter-conference rivalries, and stoke the East vs West rivalry.

    Leave a comment:


  • ExileOnDaytonStreet
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by Jasma View Post
    Changing the NCAA tourney format might liven it up.
    One scenario:
    A 16 team NCAA Tourney, as it is now.
    The finalists of the 6 leagues make the tourney - 12 teams
    There are 4 at-large selections made by the committee
    The committee then seeds the teams and places them in the four regionals
    The 4 at-large berths help protect strong teams that get upset in early-round conference tournament games.
    This format does add one more Atlantic Hockey team to the NCAAs, but it also livens up the conference tourneys. Even the finals could be important for seeding.
    Oh, and move the regionals to smaller venues. this might be easier to do in the Northeast, but I'm not familiar with midwest and western cities with smaller arenas.
    In the northeast you have cities like Bridgeport, Trenton, Syracuse, Glens Falls, Rochester, Manchester that seat fewer than places like Albany, Providence and Worcester. 4,000 to 6,000 fannies in a building that seat 8-10,000 is a lot better than what we have seen in the larger buildings and cities.
    Flaws in this I'm sure, but something needs to change. There is not enough excitement at most of the conference and regional tournaments the way it is set-up now.
    I stopped reading this pretty quickly.

    TWO Big Ten teams?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jasma
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Changing the NCAA tourney format might liven it up.
    One scenario:
    A 16 team NCAA Tourney, as it is now.
    The finalists of the 6 leagues make the tourney - 12 teams
    There are 4 at-large selections made by the committee
    The committee then seeds the teams and places them in the four regionals
    The 4 at-large berths help protect strong teams that get upset in early-round conference tournament games.
    This format does add one more Atlantic Hockey team to the NCAAs, but it also livens up the conference tourneys. Even the finals could be important for seeding.
    Oh, and move the regionals to smaller venues. this might be easier to do in the Northeast, but I'm not familiar with midwest and western cities with smaller arenas.
    In the northeast you have cities like Bridgeport, Trenton, Syracuse, Glens Falls, Rochester, Manchester that seat fewer than places like Albany, Providence and Worcester. 4,000 to 6,000 fannies in a building that seat 8-10,000 is a lot better than what we have seen in the larger buildings and cities.
    Flaws in this I'm sure, but something needs to change. There is not enough excitement at most of the conference and regional tournaments the way it is set-up now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Patman
    replied
    Originally posted by Craig P. View Post
    Understood, thanks.
    Hmm... I wonder if that's what was wrong with my RPI code...

    Why do you make things so needlessly difficult, NCAA?

    Leave a comment:


  • Craig P.
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    You're not understanding what I'm saying...if a team wins a home game, that game gets a game weight of 0.8, if they lose its 1.2. That changes the weight of the OppW% and OppOppW%. While the game result itself doesn't change the OppW%, it does change the weight of the values, which is confusing.
    Understood, thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • billmich88888
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    I actually am old enough to remember when the NCAA hoops tournament was 1 team per conference. The ACC was the only conference with a tournament that determined the NCAA team. It was intense. It was sold out for 3 nights. It was epic.

    I also remember when the NCAA was 4 teams and the ECAC 1st and 2nd place tournament finishers (with the notable exception of BU screwing over Clarkson in 1971) were the ECAC representatives. If #1 lost before the finals, they were done. It made the tournament intense and the Garden was rocking.

    Why not return to that feeling?
    Because back then you had basically only 2 conferences, so these games you speak of were defacto national tournament games,

    with 6 conferences today, cant get that genie back in the bottle

    Leave a comment:


  • joecct
    replied
    Originally posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
    Then why not just eliminate conference tourneys altogether (no one is showing up to watch half of them anyway) and put everyone in. Bye the top 4, best two out of three in the first round at the higher seed, or even the first two rounds. ( would still only give you a max of 10 postseason games possible for the champs.) That would greatly reduce the pressure on the PWR getting it perfect because even if you're screwed by the system, you're not out, and would just generally make for a great tournament with zero meaningless post season games. It would bring in the real Cinderella possibility and also largely account for teams that are playing their best down the stretch. You could also probably restore some traditional rivalries lost in realignment by breaking into 4 regions. Who wouldn't love that?
    I actually am old enough to remember when the NCAA hoops tournament was 1 team per conference. The ACC was the only conference with a tournament that determined the NCAA team. It was intense. It was sold out for 3 nights. It was epic.

    I also remember when the NCAA was 4 teams and the ECAC 1st and 2nd place tournament finishers (with the notable exception of BU screwing over Clarkson in 1971) were the ECAC representatives. If #1 lost before the finals, they were done. It made the tournament intense and the Garden was rocking.

    Why not return to that feeling?

    Leave a comment:


  • Wisko McBadgerton
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    I think winning your conference removes all doubt.

    At-Large teams hurt the intensity of the conference tournaments. After all, if you're 4th in the PWR, a loss won't knock you out. Remove the at-large and even #1 has to work to get to the NCAA tournament.
    Then why not just eliminate conference tourneys altogether (no one is showing up to watch half of them anyway) and put everyone in. Bye the top 4, best two out of three in the first round at the higher seed, or even the first two rounds. ( would still only give you a max of 10 postseason games possible for the champs.) That would greatly reduce the pressure on the PWR getting it perfect because even if you're screwed by the system, you're not out, and would just generally make for a great tournament with zero meaningless post season games. It would bring in the real Cinderella possibility and also largely account for teams that are playing their best down the stretch. You could also probably restore some traditional rivalries lost in realignment by breaking into 4 regions. Who wouldn't love that?

    Leave a comment:


  • Finnedog
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    I think winning your conference removes all doubt.

    At-Large teams hurt the intensity of the conference tournaments. After all, if you're 4th in the PWR, a loss won't knock you out. Remove the at-large and even #1 has to work to get to the NCAA tournament.

    To me winning your conference's regular season would give a better indication of how you would fair in the NCAA tourney; but if you take away the possibility that a bad team might get hot and win their conference tourney a majority of the teams would have no chance to make the tournament after half the season is over. The conference tourney is a new season for them.
    I do agree with a high at large seed not needing to play hard at conference tourneys, see Denver and North Dakota.

    Leave a comment:


  • Shirtless Guy
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by Craig P. View Post
    Unless this has changed recently, your own games against an opponent are excluded from the OppW% column. It's one of the things that has always made RPI deceptively tricky to calculate.



    Just because the multiplier is large, doesn't mean that it has a large effect on the RPI. There is relatively little variation in OppOpp from one team to another, so even with an apparently large multiplier, it still may not have that much influence.
    You're not understanding what I'm saying...if a team wins a home game, that game gets a game weight of 0.8, if they lose its 1.2. That changes the weight of the OppW% and OppOppW%. While the game result itself doesn't change the OppW%, it does change the weight of the values, which is confusing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Craig P.
    replied
    Re: How to improve the Pairwise

    Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    For example...the result of every game directly impacts the weight of Opp's W% and OppOpp W%. Should UMD's Opp W% be determined on whether or not they win a game? Or does it make sense that the 2nd and 3rd components of RPI should not be weighted based on the outcome of the game?
    Unless this has changed recently, your own games against an opponent are excluded from the OppW% column. It's one of the things that has always made RPI deceptively tricky to calculate.

    Originally posted by manurespreader View Post
    My issues with it are as follows:
    I think the OppOpp is weighted too high and I'd find some way to lower it slightly.
    Just because the multiplier is large, doesn't mean that it has a large effect on the RPI. There is relatively little variation in OppOpp from one team to another, so even with an apparently large multiplier, it still may not have that much influence.

    Leave a comment:

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