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UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

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  • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

    Nothing's inevitable. Krog played all 4 years - as did Mowers before him - and they both carved out decent, respectable NHL careers. Bekar left a year early (would have been a senior with Krog in '98/'99) and he never really made it, despite being in what was then a mediocre LA Kings organization. Bogueniecki also stayed all 4 years, and had a couple of decent NHL seasons too. Haydar was another 4 year guy, and although he was like Bekar (couple of cups of NHL coffee), he went on to be an all-time AHL *legend* (for what it's worth).

    These are all choices, and nothing is guaranteed. I wonder if Bekar would do differently, knowing then what he knows now ...
    Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
    Montreal Expos Forever ...

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    • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

      Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
      Listen, I love the enthusiasm over Poturalski and Kelleher running up big numbers - can't say I didn't enjoy it when Krog was enjoying his Hobey season in '98/'99 - but if it meant the team winning Hockey East and/or the NCAA's (hey - if I'm gonna dream, I might as well dream big) while their individual stats returned to Earth a little bit ... then here's to balanced scoring up and down the line-up.
      The problem is, I'm not ready to buy regional tickets after a 5-0-1 surge against three of the worst teams in all of college hockey. We'll see what UNH -and the balanced offense - can do when they start playing competent NCAA programs beginning with UMV (let alone legitimate NCAA programs like UML, PC, BU, and ND).

      Maybe they've turned the corner - we'll see - but they still have a lot to prove to me. Perhaps all streets will meet at the Fleet for the third straight year, but they're still a long shot to make the NCAA Tournament. I think their best bet to make the tournament - and for maximizing my enjoyment - is for #18 & #16 to lead the country in scoring and earn All-Hockey East and All-American honors. If they can add the cherry of balance on top, all the better...
      Last edited by Dan; 12-31-2015, 04:29 PM.
      Live Free or Die!!
      Miami University '03

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      • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

        Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
        Nothing's inevitable. Krog played all 4 years - as did Mowers before him - and they both carved out decent, respectable NHL careers. Bekar left a year early (would have been a senior with Krog in '98/'99) and he never really made it, despite being in what was then a mediocre LA Kings organization. Bogueniecki also stayed all 4 years, and had a couple of decent NHL seasons too. Haydar was another 4 year guy, and although he was like Bekar (couple of cups of NHL coffee), he went on to be an all-time AHL *legend* (for what it's worth).

        These are all choices, and nothing is guaranteed. I wonder if Bekar would do differently, knowing then what he knows now ...
        I would be shocked if Poturalski stays four years - eventually, he will earn an offer he cannot refuse. The biggest hope for him staying for a third season is his awareness and desire to work on his defense. It is certainly one area of his game that needs to improve and he has acknowledged that on multiple occasions. He also stayed an extra season in the USHL, which has paid off in spades. So hopefully, he sees the benefit of taking things slowly. I can only imagine what he and Kelleher could accomplish next season, when they would have a truly legitimate supporting cast on offense, another year of experience on the back end and three healthy DI goalies to guard against slumps...
        Last edited by Dan; 12-31-2015, 04:36 PM.
        Live Free or Die!!
        Miami University '03

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        • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

          Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
          UNH has done enough already to sabotage its own PWR, thanks ... oh, and I fixed your post a bit.

          'Welcome, neighbah ... Happy New Year to all the UMaine-iacs out there - I think I speak for a good number of UNH'ers when I say we want our old rivalry back, at the top end of the standings/PWR ... and that's gonna take both of our programs to do a lot of work to turn things around. I suspect we'll both be onto our next coaches in 3 years' time anyway.
          Is Souza a Coach in waiting for UNH..? Maine..???..could very well be when Gendron's Contract expires...Maybe???...UM has been known to extend Coaches even when they shouldn't. But MISS the days of UNH/Maine showdowns for Hockey East standings and towards the NCAA's....here's hoping it comes back...sooner then later.

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          • Originally posted by Ma#1ne Hky View Post
            Is Souza a Coach in waiting for UNH..? Maine..???..could very well be when Gendron's Contract expires...Maybe???...UM has been known to extend Coaches even when they shouldn't. But MISS the days of UNH/Maine showdowns for Hockey East standings and towards the NCAA's....here's hoping it comes back...sooner then later.
            We fully expect Souza to be named Head Coach of Men's Hockey in New Hampshire...starting in 2018. At least..that's the plan!
            Let's Go SouzaCats!

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            • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

              Originally posted by HockeyRef View Post
              We fully expect Souza to be named Head Coach of Men's Hockey in New Hampshire...starting in 2018. At least..that's the plan!
              I'm still on record saying Coach Umile somehow finds his way to another extension (however brief it may be).
              Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
              Montreal Expos Forever ...

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              • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

                Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
                I'm still on record saying Coach Umile somehow finds his way to another extension (however brief it may be).
                Funny you say that Chuck coz in my 'perfect world plan' I retire from teaching in 3 years...but looks more like...five.
                Let's Go SouzaCats!

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                • Originally posted by Dan View Post
                  I would be shocked if Poturalski stays four years - eventually, he will earn an offer he cannot refuse. The biggest hope for him staying for a third season is his awareness and desire to work on his defense. It is certainly one area of his game that needs to improve and he has acknowledged that on multiple occasions. He also stayed an extra season in the USHL, which has paid off in spades. So hopefully, he sees the benefit of taking things slowly. I can only imagine what he and Kelleher could accomplish next season, when they would have a truly legitimate supporting cast on offense, another year of experience on the back end and three healthy DI goalies to guard against slumps...
                  I agree, Dan. And, I really hope that AP stays for his junior year, as I think that would provide the best opportunity for the Cats to make the NCAAs for the first time in four years, and perhaps make some noise there. Not only would AP have the added opportunity to improve his defensive skills, but he could put up some awesome offensive numbers alongside TK.

                  To Chuck's earlier post, JvR, Trevor Smith, Dan Winnik, and a couple of other UNH players who left early have had some longevity in the NHL, and I think that if TvR can stay healthy, he can do the same. My view is that these guys have a hard time refusing the $$ if it is there.

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                  • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

                    Originally posted by Snively65 View Post
                    To Chuck's earlier post, JvR, Trevor Smith, Dan Winnik, and a couple of other UNH players who left early have had some longevity in the NHL, and I think that if TvR can stay healthy, he can do the same. My view is that these guys have a hard time refusing the $$ if it is there.
                    My point was (and still is) ... signing early is no guarantee of getting to the NHL - much less longevity. Trevor Smith barely played 100 NHL games in his career, and at age 30 he is now over in Europe - likely for good. And to me, discussion about Winnik's career reminds me of the way the UMaine-iacs used to look at Bobby Corkum ... and looking at both of their careers in the cold light of day, both piled up a lot of service time primarily because they became 3rd/4th line fixtures (i.e. cheap salaries, nowadays against a cap), mostly on a series of bad teams. Krog and Mowers both probably had half the NHL service of Winnik, but if you're going to tell me Winnik was the best of those three players, I'm going to disagree. Not to mention, Poturalski's profile as a high skill player with less on the physical side would be FAR more reminiscent of the Mowers/Krog (and Haydar) profiles, as opposed to Winnik, who has had staying power as an NHL grunt.

                    JvR is different because he had the size and skills (not sure you can say he's lived up to #2 overall in the draft to date, in fairness), and TvR has the size and raw skills that can be developed at the NHL level (plus a pedigree that got him an extra look as his college career played out, no doubt). Someday BvR will probably benefit from that in terms of additional looks and possible opportunities as well.

                    But going back to Poturalski ... he holds most of the cards, with no assigned draft rights, so while that leaves his options very much open, he also has the luxury of looking back to see how players similar to him at UNH have fared afterwards. Leaving early (and we can throw guys like Jeff Levy, Jamie Filipowicz, Brian Muir, Eric Nickulas, most recently Blake Kessel and a few others into that mix, on top of the lead example of Derek Bekar) is no assurance of it being your best long-term career move ... or that you can't still have an NHL career if you play all four D-1 seasons. JMHO.
                    Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
                    Montreal Expos Forever ...

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                    • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

                      Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
                      My point was (and still is) ... signing early is no guarantee of getting to the NHL - much less longevity. Trevor Smith barely played 100 NHL games in his career, and at age 30 he is now over in Europe - likely for good. And to me, discussion about Winnik's career reminds me of the way the UMaine-iacs used to look at Bobby Corkum ... and looking at both of their careers in the cold light of day, both piled up a lot of service time primarily because they became 3rd/4th line fixtures (i.e. cheap salaries, nowadays against a cap), mostly on a series of bad teams. Krog and Mowers both probably had half the NHL service of Winnik, but if you're going to tell me Winnik was the best of those three players, I'm going to disagree. Not to mention, Poturalski's profile as a high skill player with less on the physical side would be FAR more reminiscent of the Mowers/Krog (and Haydar) profiles, as opposed to Winnik, who has had staying power as an NHL grunt.

                      JvR is different because he had the size and skills (not sure you can say he's lived up to #2 overall in the draft to date, in fairness), and TvR has the size and raw skills that can be developed at the NHL level (plus a pedigree that got him an extra look as his college career played out, no doubt). Someday BvR will probably benefit from that in terms of additional looks and possible opportunities as well.

                      But going back to Poturalski ... he holds most of the cards, with no assigned draft rights, so while that leaves his options very much open, he also has the luxury of looking back to see how players similar to him at UNH have fared afterwards. Leaving early (and we can throw guys like Jeff Levy, Jamie Filipowicz, Brian Muir, Eric Nickulas, most recently Blake Kessel and a few others into that mix, on top of the lead example of Derek Bekar) is no assurance of it being your best long-term career move ... or that you can't still have an NHL career if you play all four D-1 seasons. JMHO.
                      Sorry Chuck, but this reads with the bias of a UNH fan who is primarily concerned with what these players do while at UNH. There is nothing wrong with that, this is a UNH thread on a college hockey message board and, hey - that's always been my primary concern too. But, I'd have to disagree with a lot of your assessments.

                      First of all, whether we agree with it or not, the NHL has always been a top-six/bottom-six league - this is why players like Mowers, Krog and Haydar stayed four years at UNH. They were never viewed by NHL brass as top-six guys and they weren't built to play bottom six roles. they weren't given a fair chance in or after after college.

                      Winnik has had a great career - he's played over 600 games. You can't really be using him as an example not to go or as an example of someone who hurt his career leaving early? Muir played 300 games and won a cup! Smith, Bekar and others you mentioned had/have long pro careers and had their shots at the NHL. I don't think it's fair to say their careers are failures because they didn't end up as long time regulars in the NHL. I also don't think their failure to stick has anything to do with leaving early - they took their shot and had opportunities but just didn't make it. They wanted to be NHL players and had maxed out their development at the NCAA level. Same with Kessel. He could have dkminated college hockey as a senior, we all would have loved it - he'd still likely be an AHL guy at best., but his best shot at being more was to move up a level ..

                      Poturalski will have to make the leagues as a top six guy or get much better defensively (maybe both) but I'm not sure that leaving after this year or next or his senior year really changes much. The biggest variable would be leaving after this year as opposed to next year - I think he would gain from spending another year and taking advantage of all the practice and gym time. He needs to fill out, get stronger and play better in his own end. Most of that analysis comes from my selfish hope that he'll be around for Kelleher's senior year, while the younger forwards still need development. He could also add strength and improve defensively at the next level - which might be even more appealing still, when accompanied by a half-million dollar offer...

                      I could see him staying (and hope he does!) one more year, but there is NO WAY he stays two more years (barring injury). What could he possibly gain playing two more years at UNH? He'll just be delaying and shortening his professional career and stunting his development. He's absolutely dominating offensively this year - in a way I don't think we've seen since, and maybe even more so, than Haydar - what would be the point of skating the same circles around kids two years from now?

                      His extra year in the USHL he jumped from 12 goals and 33 points to 27 and 64, proving he still had a lot of development. He doesn't have that much development left at UNH - maybe one season for his defensive game and that's it. I wouldn't be at all shocked if he left this year. If he sees a good opportunity in front of him, how could you not advise him to go for it. As you said, he's a free agent so he'll have teams fighting over his services very soon - he's going to get a good opportunity. In my opinion, its less about when he leaves and more about what he does with his opportunity when he gets it...
                      Last edited by Dan; 01-01-2016, 08:09 PM.
                      Live Free or Die!!
                      Miami University '03

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                      • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

                        Originally posted by Dan View Post
                        Smith, Bekar and others you mentioned had/have long pro careers and had their shots at the NHL. I don't think it's fair to say their careers are failures because they didn't end up as long time regulars in the NHL.
                        They made a good chunk of change doing what they love while positioning themselves for post playing career positions as coaches or scouts.

                        Originally posted by Dan View Post
                        Poturalski... could also add strength and improve defensively at the next level - which might be even more appealing still, when accompanied by a half-million dollar offer...
                        Might? If there's been any signing bonus inflation since the days of the aforementioned players, $500K is Pot's floor.

                        Originally posted by Dan View Post
                        What could he possibly gain playing two more years at UNH? He'll just be delaying and shortening his professional career and stunting his development. He's absolutely dominating offensively this year - in a way I don't think we've seen since, and maybe even more so, than Haydar - what would be the point of skating the same circles around kids two years from now?
                        and risking his signing bonus and salary due to potential injury.

                        Originally posted by Dan View Post
                        I wouldn't be at all shocked if he left this year. If he sees a good opportunity in front of him, how could you not advise him to go for it. As you said, he's a free agent so he'll have teams fighting over his services very soon - he's going to get a good opportunity. In my opinion, its less about when he leaves and more about what he does with his opportunity when he gets it...
                        $$$ ca-ching $$$

                        Pleasant mild surprise if Pots is skating in Durham next year. Shocking if he is skates for the 'cats as a Senior.
                        I will not be out cheered in my own building.

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                        • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

                          Good discussion, wrong thread (my fault I suppose ) ... but while we're here and on topic, let me just add that my point continues to be that leaving early offers no guarantee of bettering your prospects. Who's to say a guy like Winnik doesn't still find his NHL niche as a grunt forward (BTW classifying his NHL career to date as "great" is a little generous, no?), or the same happens with Muir (sans Cup)?

                          The idea that it also gives them a leg up on future coaching (Souza/Ciocco) or scouting (Mowers) jobs belies the examples I've outlined here from guys who played all 4 seasons and got their degrees.

                          And if we're going to go down the "get the dough before a career threatening injury strikes" road, then he needs look no further than TvR, who seems to have survived a nasty injury to his wheels, and that's worked out OK.

                          Would things have turned out differently for Bekar and/or Smith if they'd stayed? Likewise, who knows. I was more puzzled by Smith on a talent level, and maybe he was given an offer he couldn't refuse? Don't recall those details. Bekar looked (to me anyway) like he was the perfect blend of skill, speed and strength (if not size), and the idea that *somehow* UNH linemate Krog's NHL career surpassed his still surprises me. But Bekar HAD to know he was walking away from a legitimate shot at a D-1 title, which probably made his decision different than the ones faced by Winnik, Smith and most of the others.

                          As a player, Poturalski reminds me most of Krog (he's bigger than Haydar, and he bears zero similarity to Bekar, Winnik, Smith or JvR) and the last time I checked, Krog unquestionably had a better NHL career than two of the four guys who left early, mentioned earlier in this sentence. He also won a Hobey, and captained a UNH team that advanced to the D-1 Finals, which is something the other two guys can't ever look back on.

                          Am I biased here? Sure - I've always said my favorite players are the ones who stay four years. But commitment is a two way street, and when I see a kid honor and respect their four year commitment in a way that doesn't make them look like a mercenary, then I am 100% behind them now and forever into the future.

                          Here's to hoping UNH does something to honor Krog, Haydar, Souza (by then a first year HC), Conklin, O'Brien, Enders, Shipulski, White, Sadowski, Bragnalo, Rogers & Co. in 2019 on the 20th anniversary of the greatest single season in the history of the UNH program.
                          Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
                          Montreal Expos Forever ...

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                          • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

                            Chuck it's highly admirable when a player finishes what they started there is no doubt about that! And it's selfish of us fans who want to keep them as well. Unfortunately once guys like Pots go to a few dev camps in the summer play in a big game like the one in Buffalo in front of 6k fans (where he scored and teammate Eichel didn't) I'd say loyalty goes right out the window. As Darius points out $$ is a big lure and you can bet if he continues in the way he has it's only a matter of time! And somehow I doubt seriously (with all due respect to your opinion) players today take a look at those who went before them and consider that in their decision making..they are just too self centered I'm sorry being a teacher I see it. Should they? Probably but the right here,right now $$ just trumps everything else. We will be lucky to get another year with him in the program...

                            Anyhoo I remember Johnny Hockey's mom wanted him to finish his Sr year at BC and we all know how that went. I do believe he did finish his degree? And I hope they do something for those guys you mention that would be very special indeed!!
                            Last edited by HockeyRef; 01-02-2016, 11:21 AM.
                            Let's Go SouzaCats!

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                            • Re: UNH vs Maine , 12/4 & 12/5 - "The Wheels On The House Go 'Round And 'Round...."

                              Free agent money and developmental camps aren't anything new.

                              I just think all these players ever seem to hear is how they should chase the quick money. Agents (oops - er - *advisors*), friends, and sometimes even well-meaning family members ... it's all just too cynical for me.

                              It kills me that we're virtually at the midway point of this kid's sophomore season, and so many are just resigned to the idea that he's leaving in 3 months (or 15 months tops).

                              I do realize I've got some fossilized ideas at times, and this one is probably top of that list.
                              Sworn Enemy of the Perpetually Offended
                              Montreal Expos Forever ...

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                              • Originally posted by Chuck Murray View Post
                                Free agent money and developmental camps aren't anything new.

                                I just think all these players ever seem to hear is how they should chase the quick money. Agents (oops - er - *advisors*), friends, and sometimes even well-meaning family members ... it's all just too cynical for me.

                                It kills me that we're virtually at the midway point of this kid's sophomore season, and so many are just resigned to the idea that he's leaving in 3 months (or 15 months tops).

                                I do realize I've got some fossilized ideas at times, and this one is probably top of that list.
                                Well seeing the track record of recent departures for me it's just a "softening of the blow"' kind of thing. When I read TvR was leaving for the BHawks I almost needed oxygen haha. When Pesce left it wasn't so bad. So if Pots (or whomever)!moves on well you just kind of expect it? Not sure so much resigned as it's the way of it these days. What Maine would do if Hutton and Shore were there this season!! (Sorry not sorry 😉 and I believe both are doing very well)

                                Still it's always hard the first few games making the adjustment and you do wish they'd stay....sigh.
                                Let's Go SouzaCats!

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