Save Uah Hockey!

[davyd83]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

With the formation of the B10 UAH will get more opponents. The B10 schools want to have a short conference schedule and I would not be surprised to see UAH play one-two B10 schools a year. I also think the CCHA should give UAH a second chance. The loss of four prominent members should be seen as a reason to add UAH and maybe one or two Atlantic Hockey teams.

Who is paying the additional travel expenses in these days of declining revenues and reduced state funding to Universities?

[Back check]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Who is paying the additional travel expenses in these days of declining revenues and reduced state funding to Universities?

When UAH applied to CCHA they offered significant $$ to offset travel costs.

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

When UAH spplied to CCHA they offered significant $$ to offset travel costs.

The "significant $$" offered was much less than what teams spent to make the trip to Omaha.

Most (if not all) CCHA teams would have jumped at the chance to add UAH had it been an "Alaska" sized deal (minus the exemption which the NCAA would never grant).

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Does Air Force provide any sort of compensation to the other Atlantic teams? How does it compare to the other deals already in discussion?

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

The "significant $$" offered was much less than what teams spent to make the trip to Omaha.

Most (if not all) CCHA teams would have jumped at the chance to add UAH had it been an "Alaska" sized deal (minus the exemption which the NCAA would never grant).

Let's not kid ourselves here - Of course they would have "jumped" at a deal that would have mostly or completely paid for the trip (or even made it profitable to go down there). What they did offer was, IIRC $8-10,000 a team, meaning that a trip to Huntsville would be slightly more expensive than a trip to any other "long" trip in conference, rather than significantly more expensive.

In other words, the CCHA as a whole would rather completely save the cost of one "long trip" than save UAH. Just plucking LSSU's schedule from last year (and ignoring UA_'s impact on travel), they took 4 "long" trips to the Ohio or Indiana schools last year. Compare that to 2 trips in '09-'10 plus a trip to UNO, 3 in '08-'09, 2 plus UNO in '07-'08, 3 in '06-'07, and 2 plus UNO in '05-'06. Huh, looks like a complete fail to me if I'm LSSU. They went from a system where they took ~ 3 "long" trips a year to one where they took 4. They could have maintained the old scheduling format (pair UA_ with UAH), visited Huntsville ~ every other year and gotten a $10,000 subsidy to do so. Instead, they travel further, more often and don't get any travel assistance (outside Alaska). How's that working for ya, CCHA?

[Back check]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

The "significant $$" offered was much less than what teams spent to make the trip to Omaha.

Most (if not all) CCHA teams would have jumped at the chance to add UAH had it been an "Alaska" sized deal (minus the exemption which the NCAA would never grant).

aparch - If what Moose says is true, is $10 000 per trip far less than what teams spent to go to Omaha?

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

aparch - If what Moose says is true, is $10 000 per trip far less than what teams spent to go to Omaha?

Moose's numbers are right. NMU's last trip to UNO was January 2009. I don't know specifics, but the lump cost was in the ballpark of $16,000 and involved an overnight stay halfway though the trip TO Omaha.

While I don't know what the other teams were spending, I WAS told that what NMU was paying was in line with what other universities spent to make the trip. The ~$6,000 difference (UNO trip versus reimbursement from UAH) is roughly one semesters tuition for NMU. And (I presume) close to the same for FSU, BGSU, LSSU, and maybe WMU.



My take on it is that the schools all needed to take a step back and evaluate their travel budgets. The reprieve granted by not making a trip to Omaha was welcomed. There is a lot of turbulent water right now, and throwing UAH into the mix is just going to create more waves. In order for the CCHA to take on UAH, they need to:
1) Evaluate current members and the health of a CCHA without the B1G schools.
2) Confirm and commit to x years of CCHA hockey without the B1G schools.
3) Evaluate if B1G-less CCHA needs to expand footprint
4) Evaluate just how to place footprint. Does Pennsylvania fit better than Alabama?


The CCHA isn't just going to add UAH for the sake of adding UAH. What happens if in 2013-14, the CCHA loses Notre Dame and Miami? Does UAH feel they can compete at a national level playing their conference games against NMU, FSU, LSSU, BGSU, WMU, and UAf? That's a seven team conference. If BGSU and LSSU decide that they don't want to sink money into their programs, you're down to five schools. Hello CHA. Goodbye auto-bids.

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Moose's numbers are right. NMU's last trip to UNO was January 2009. I don't know specifics, but the lump cost was in the ballpark of $16,000 and involved an overnight stay halfway though the trip TO Omaha.

While I don't know what the other teams were spending, I WAS told that what NMU was paying was in line with what other universities spent to make the trip. The ~$6,000 difference (UNO trip versus reimbursement from UAH) is roughly one semesters tuition for NMU. And (I presume) close to the same for FSU, BGSU, LSSU, and maybe WMU.

And I think that a fair point remains that while LSSU didn't make a trip to UNO last year, they did make 4 trips to Ohio/Indiana, something they hadn't done in the previous 5 seasons. So they saved $6,000, right? Big whoop. And I also don't buy the, "the CCHA knew that Penn State would be starting varsity hockey, so they waited," argument. You know why? Follow the timeline:

UAH was denied entry to the CCHA - August 2009
Terry Pegula sells Northern Tier to Royal Dutch Schell for $4.7 billion (setting the stage for PSU hockey) - May 2010
PSU meets with Pegula - August 2010
PSU adds hockey - September, 2010

As of August 2009, PSU was still a bad message board joke.

My take on it is that the schools all needed to take a step back and evaluate their travel budgets. The reprieve granted by not making a trip to Omaha was welcomed. There is a lot of turbulent water right now, and throwing UAH into the mix is just going to create more waves. In order for the CCHA to take on UAH, they need to:
1) Evaluate current members and the health of a CCHA without the B1G schools.
2) Confirm and commit to x years of CCHA hockey without the B1G schools.
3) Evaluate if B1G-less CCHA needs to expand footprint
4) Evaluate just how to place footprint. Does Pennsylvania fit better than Alabama?


The CCHA isn't just going to add UAH for the sake of adding UAH. What happens if in 2013-14, the CCHA loses Notre Dame and Miami? Does UAH feel they can compete at a national level playing their conference games against NMU, FSU, LSSU, BGSU, WMU, and UAf? That's a seven team conference. If BGSU and LSSU decide that they don't want to sink money into their programs, you're down to five schools. Hello CHA. Goodbye auto-bids.

Now this is hard to argue with. There are still a ton of questions, IMHO, at UAH (new AD and Pres level of support) in addition to conference stability. My comments in my previous post were more directed at the 2009 decision (which, again, had nothing to do with PSU, although I'll admit that the BTHC was a possibility if you look back at what Wisconsin was considering).


And as a personal note aparch - isn't it time to "let it go" in regard to your "keep it at 11" signature? It might have been funny 2 summers ago, but at this point, UAH is in serious peril, as is the CCHA.

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

In other words, the CCHA as a whole would rather completely save the cost of one "long trip" than save UAH. Just plucking LSSU's schedule from last year (and ignoring UA_'s impact on travel), they took 4 "long" trips to the Ohio or Indiana schools last year. Compare that to 2 trips in '09-'10 plus a trip to UNO,...

I'm just going to throw completely baseless numbers against a wall here. To make my math easy, I figure 30 people on each trip. Figure in a group rate of $80 for hotel rooms (15 rooms), and $4.00 per gallon for diesel to bus (round trip mileage). Throw on a per-Diem of $20 per person (for a team meal each day). There are a bunch of other costs that still would need to be factored in.

LSSU 2010-11 road schedule / costs
South Bend - Weds through Friday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Ann Arbor - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Denver - I'm going to take the easy way out of this one and claim that the payout for being part of the tourney is a wash and covers the cost of travel. = $0
Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760
Columbus - Thurs through Saturday. 1040 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4160 fuel = $8360

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for 10-11: $49,520.


LSSU 2010-11 road schedule / costs
Superior Cup - Thursday through Sunday. 900 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals, $3600 fuel = $9600
Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Omaha - Wednesday through Saturday. 1700 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals, $6800 fuel = $12800
RPI Tourney - I'm coping out again and saying that the RPI tourney is a wash financially. = $0
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Pittsburgh - Friday through Sunday. 1240 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4960 fuel = $9160
East Lansing - Thursday through Saturday. 600 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2400 fuel = $6600
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Fairbanks - UAf pays for the flight. I believe the hotel is still up to the teams. But for arguments sake... = $0
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for the 09-10: $64,920.



And that's hoping that you can get a block of rooms for $80 a night everywhere. And that fuel remained at $4.00.

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

...So they saved $6,000, right? Big whoop.

In an era of State budget cutbacks, any fiscal responsibility needs to take place to show that care is being taken in watching the budget. If the hockey team is willing to pi** away only six grand, what are the REST of the departments throwing away financially?

And I also don't buy the, "the CCHA knew that Penn State would be starting varsity hockey, so they waited," argument. You know why? Follow the timeline:

At this point, I feel resentment towards Anastos.

And as a personal note aparch - isn't it time to "let it go" in regard to your "keep it at 11" signature? It might have been funny 2 summers ago, but at this point, UAH is in serious peril, as is the CCHA.

Probably. But updating the sig is one of my lesser concerns.

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Third post.



Just to add, from what I was told, there were no length of terms given for the UAH reimbursement either. That caused some teams to question the deal. Was it for just one year? Two years? Five years? UAA length deal with progressively lesser values? UAf deal where they'll pay existing members as long as they stay in the conference?

If there were terms, I don't remember reading about it or hearing when I asked. So I could be wrong on this one.

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

I'm just going to throw completely baseless numbers against a wall here. To make my math easy, I figure 30 people on each trip. Figure in a group rate of $80 for hotel rooms (15 rooms), and $4.00 per gallon for diesel to bus (round trip mileage). Throw on a per-Diem of $20 per person (for a team meal each day). There are a bunch of other costs that still would need to be factored in.

LSSU 2010-11 road schedule / costs
South Bend - Weds through Friday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Ann Arbor - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Denver - I'm going to take the easy way out of this one and claim that the payout for being part of the tourney is a wash and covers the cost of travel. = $XXXX
Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760
Columbus - Thurs through Saturday. 1040 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4160 fuel = $8360

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for 10-11: $49,520.


LSSU 2009-10 road schedule / costs
Superior Cup - Thursday through Sunday. 900 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals, $3600 fuel = $XXXX
Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
Omaha - Wednesday through Saturday. 1700 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals, $6800 fuel = $12800
RPI Tourney - I'm coping out again and saying that the RPI tourney is a wash financially. = $XXXX
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
Pittsburgh - Friday through Sunday. 1240 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4960 fuel = $XXXX
East Lansing - Thursday through Saturday. 600 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2400 fuel = $6600
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Fairbanks - UAf pays for the flight. I believe the hotel is still up to the teams. But for arguments sake... = $XXXX
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for the 09-10: $46,160.



And that's hoping that you can get a block of rooms for $80 a night everywhere. And that fuel remained at $4.00.

For the purpose of our discussion, however, conference travel is all that is relevant, since teams make their own decisions on where they go for OOC games (LSSU scheduling UMD or Mercyhurst is much cheaper than Denver or RMU; travel for guarantee games factors in as you note... Years with an exemption whree they have to play an extra couple OOC games) and because suddenly you see nearly $20,000 is the Superior Showcase and the trip to Pittsburgh. Why does that count against the next year and how does that affect conference travel? So take the OOC game out and the above is hardly the $6000 savings you claim. Rather, it's the $6000 savings turned into an extra $3,360. Then they threw away the $10,000 UAH was going to give them...

So, using your math, LSSU to UAH is 1866 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals and $7464 fuel = $13,464 - $10,000 UAH subsidy = $3,464.

So:

Hypothetical LSSU 2011-12 road schedule / costs (with UAH in conference)

Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
UAH - Wednesday through Saturday 1866 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals and $7464 fuel = $13,464 - $10,000 UAH subsidy = $3,464 *
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
East Lansing - Thursday through Saturday. 600 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2400 fuel = $6600
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Fairbanks - UAf pays for the flight. I believe the hotel is still up to the teams. But for arguments sake... = $XXXX *
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760

* Since UAH and UA_ would be in the same cluster, they'd go to both in the same year, no?

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for the '11-'12: $36,824.

Look at that - it went down almost exactly the $10,000 Huntsville gave them... And note $13,000 less than their estimate from last year... Who knew!

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Third post.



Just to add, from what I was told, there were no length of terms given for the UAH reimbursement either. That caused some teams to question the deal. Was it for just one year? Two years? Five years? UAA length deal with progressively lesser values? UAf deal where they'll pay existing members as long as they stay in the conference?

If there were terms, I don't remember reading about it or hearing when I asked. So I could be wrong on this one.

Just thinking logically, I can't imagine that it was left as ambiguous as "no length of terms." If there was concerns, I could see it as being UAA like (they now provide half the tickets they did when they joined the WCHA) or a set time period (1, 2, 5, 10, etc. years). Even still, based on our poor math, it hardly is a huge change to add UAH (over Omaha), and even could have saved money. And even if it were a set time period (let's say 10 years), if LSSU, BGSU, FSU et all aren't on solid ground by that time (and still couldn't afford one trip every other year to Alabama), there are much bigger problems in the CCHA... I just maintain that, to some extent, the CCHA's denial of UAH was sour grapes over the WCHA's alleged "poaching" of UNO.

[aparch]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

For the purpose of our discussion, however, conference travel is all that is relevant, since teams make their own decisions on where they go for OOC games (LSSU scheduling UMD or Mercyhurst is much cheaper than Denver or RMU; travel for guarantee games factors in as you note... Years with an exemption whree they have to play an extra couple OOC games). So take the OOC game out and the above is hardly the $6000 savings you claim. Rather, it's the $6000 savings turned into an extra $3,360. Then they threw away the $10,000 UAH was going to give them...

So, using your math, LSSU to UAH is 1866 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals and $7464 fuel = $13,464 - $10,000 UAH subsidy = $3,464.

So:

Hypothetical LSSU 2011-12 road schedule / costs (with UAH in conference)

Kalamazoo - Thursday through Saturday. 700 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2800 fuel = $7000
UAH - Wednesday through Saturday 1866 miles. $3600 hotel, $2400 meals and $7464 fuel = $13,464 - $10,000 UAH subsidy = $3,464 *
Bowling Green - Thurs through Saturday. 800 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $3200 fuel = $7400
East Lansing - Thursday through Saturday. 600 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $2400 fuel = $6600
Oxford - Thursday through Saturday. 1100 miles. $2400 hotel, $1800 meals, $4400 fuel = $8600
Fairbanks - UAf pays for the flight. I believe the hotel is still up to the teams. But for arguments sake... = $XXXX *
Marquette - Friday and Saturday. 340 miles. $1200 hotel, $1200 meals, $1360 fuel = $3760

* Since UAH and UA_ would be in the same cluster, they'd go to both in the same year, no?

Rough guestimate MINIMUM travel budget for the '11-'12: $36,824.

Look at that - it went down almost exactly the $10,000 Huntsville gave them... And note $13,000 less than their estimate from last year... Who knew!

Yep, I should have made it conference only. To correct:

09-10: Seven road conference games.
Kalamazoo - $7000, Omaha - $12800, Bowling Green - $7400, East Lansing - $6600, Oxford - $8600, Fairbanks - $0,
Marquette - $3760. = $46,160

10-11: Seven road conference games.
South Bend - $7400, Oxford - $8600, Ann Arbor - $7000, Kalamazoo - $7000, Bowling Green - $7400, Marquette - $3760, Columbus - $8360. = $49,520

Proposed 11-12 w/UAH: (your numbers)
Kalamazoo - $7000, UAH - $13464*, Bowling Green - $7400, East Lansing - $6600, Oxford - $8600, Fairbanks - $0,
Marquette - $3760. = $46,824 - UAH $10,000* = $36,824

Prelim 11-12: (Just guessing)
Marquette - $3760, Fairbanks - $0, East Lansing - $6600, Big Rapids (500mi) - $6200, Bowling Green - $7400, Kalamazoo - $7000, Ann Arbor - $7000. = $37,960


Without knowing future schedules, as it stands LSSU would get the same financial benefit with or without UAH. I think the benefit could come from busting up UAH and UAF and alternating them.

So we'd be looking at:
Prelim 12-13:
South Bend - $7400, Oxford - $8600, Ann Arbor - $7000, Kalamazoo - $7000, UAH - $13464, Marquette - $3760, Columbus - $8360. = $55584 - UAH 10k = $45,584

B1G-free CCHA 13-14:
Big Rapids - $6200, Bowling Green - $7400, Kalamazoo - $7000, Marquette - $3760, Oxford - $8600, South Bend - $7400. = $40,360

B1G-free CCHA 13-14:
Big Rapids - $6200, Bowling Green - $7400, UAH - $13464*, Kalamazoo - $7000, Marquette - $3760, Oxford - $8600, South Bend - $7400. = $53,824 - UAH 10k = $43,824

I haven't even begun to look at what UAH would need to do for scheduling. At that point, if the CCHA schools say "Sure! We'll take you in!" what's to say that UAH wants to continue paying the 10k discount? If they do, do they really want to bleed dry from paying that much every year?



(Yes, I'm just adding to your post; I'm not really counter arguing anything. Just trying to put more numbers to this to see if it's really what I've heard.)

[moose97]

Re: Save Uah Hockey!

Yep, I should have made it conference only. To correct:

...

I haven't even begun to look at what UAH would need to do for scheduling. At that point, if the CCHA schools say "Sure! We'll take you in!" what's to say that UAH wants to continue paying the 10k discount? If they do, do they really want to bleed dry from paying that much every year?



(Yes, I'm just adding to your post; I'm not really counter arguing anything. Just trying to put more numbers to this to see if it's really what I've heard.)

Back in 2009 I'd say that UAH would have been willing to commit to that financial situation for a while (the 5-10 years). Now? I'm guessing not so much. Truthfully, I'd say that the CCHA missed the boat on the deal re: any kind of UAH subsidy. The reason being that it was based on the Chargers drawing "name" opponents (OSU, Michigan, MSU not to mention the Irish and to a lesser extent, Miami) into the VonBraun Center on a regular basis (look at their home schedules over the last 10 years and tell me why any average hockey fan would be excited outside of the "rivalry*" that is BSU. If the CCHA came back to UAH today and said, "okay, we'll take that deal, $10,000 a road trip and you're in the conference." I'd bet that UAH would say, "Um, no thanks. We can't make that work financially since we won't sell out games with NMU, LSSU, Ferris, WMU, BGSU and Alaska coming into town with no guarantee that Notre Dame and Miami are sticking around."


* I put quotes around it because long-term, it will look more like an aberration than any real rivalry. The teams didn't meet until the mid-'90's, and then only in the national title game, and then met in conference play for a only decade. It's a blip that will be forgotten by most students at BSU within 2-3 more years (heck, the OOC game in December in Bji will have Fr., So. who have no knowledge of the "rivalry" as conference games and Jr.'s and Sr.'s who remember UAH as a team that BSU has beaten 24 of the last 30 times they'd played).)