College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

[Hokydad]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

NCAA players don't need more games. More games doesn't always make you a better player, but more practice does. College kids already get twice the practice time and weight room time that MJ players get, and they play against older and stronger players. Smart NHL GMs know this, but the reality is that most NHL player development people came up through major junior, and they prefer that route because they know it better, they can control it better and they know the people in it better. It's human nature to stay with what you know.

Until more college-route GMs get hired by NHL teams, we wont see big change.

College hockey needs to do a better job selling its benefits.

They dont get twice the practice time and weight room time

Go look at the London Knoghts schedule and then tell us that.

They are playing vs older and stronger kids because they are in fact, older.

When they are 22 year old juniors or seniors, the major junior kids are playing against 22 year old ahl kids, who are slightly above the ncaa kids

[goldy_331]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Extending the NCAA season is never going to happen. College hockey is already the longest season on the NCAA calender. If anything was going to happen the number of games would be reduced.

One has to question if the Gophers problems in recent season is related to a decline in the top end quality of Minnesota born players. Certainly less Minnesota and Mass. players are elite USHL or USNDT players than ever before.

How many families have the money to spend on producing an elite college level hockey player these days? Some have suggested that it can cost $200,000 in equipment, camps, rink fees, travel & tournaments for 12 years of youth hockey.

There are many smart hockey people involved in youth hockey in MN who feel this decline is due to too many games and not enough practices for the youth ranks. Lots of kids who play a lot of games year around, not many rink rats who skate outside and develop skills and moves anymore. Lots of good system players, not high end skill players.

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Or he's lazy in school and doesn't do his work... making him ineligible for the second semester... which is a character flaw that most professional teams won't want on their team anyway. If a kid is lazy in the classroom, he'll be lazy in the workplace... most Americans don't go North because they can get to the NHL... they go because they cant get into... or stay in school.

It is far better for a player to get his degree at 22 - 23 yrs old than play major juniors... flop around the minors for a few years then attempt to go to school and get a degree.... and not many take advantage of the MJ College money.... or if they do... probably don't graduate anyway. Bottom line, I don't care where you play... Canada or the US.... 95% or better will never make it to the NHL level... so the college route is a better way to play hockey and get their schooling in because that piece of paper they get when they graduate will be a whole lot more valuable than their hockey talents.... IN MOST CASES...

So much negativity ...

Not all American players go the Major Junior route because they can't get into school. Luke Lynes, who is with UNB and won a CIS championship with them last season and now has a nice ring, turned down an NCAA scholarship (Bowling Green?) to go OHL, because he thought it was a better route to get drafted. While playing for Brampton he got drafted by his hometown Washington Capitals in the 4th round in 2006. Did he sign with them after junior? No, but he did achieve his dream of getting drafted. Would he have got drafted if he went NCAA? Who knows, but the important part is that he BELIEVED he had a better chance of getting drafted if he played Major Junior. Luke told me another big factor was that the NCAA team wanted him to spend time in the USHL, and he didn't like the team they recommended (? I'm not sure how that works, do USHL teams draft players?) whereas he could start off a higher level right away if he jumped to the OHL.

After trying the minor pros for a few months he now using his education package from junior to attend UNB and play for national championships. What is wrong with that?

UPEI has two Americans attending school and playing for them. Aaron Dawson from Peoria who played with Peterborough and Taylor Raszka from Petersburg, MI who played most of his OHL with Saginaw and then played minor pro. American student-athletes are scattered throughout the CIS, and all of them of course played Major Junior.

I see it discussed here a bit, but I think big factor is NCAA teams getting commitments from players, yet wanting them to spend time in the USHL, while some kids are anxious to get going on their career and don't want to wait in the USHL until their NCAA team is ready for them. Screw that, head off to Major junior.

As for the number of games, the three CIS conferences play 28 game schedules. Non-conference games are all considered exhibition games, and most teams only play a handful. Good teams play more - UNB has played 8 already and has two more plus a roadtrip to Maine after Christmas. Most CIS teams practice everyday except Sunday and game days, which is probably similar to the NCAA, so there is definitely more focus on development and preparation than junior.

[Hokydad]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

There are many smart hockey people involved in youth hockey in MN who feel this decline is due to too many games and not enough practices for the youth ranks. Lots of kids who play a lot of games year around, not many rink rats who skate outside and develop skills and moves anymore. Lots of good system players, not high end skill players.

Well the they should look in the mirror because they were the ones running it.

The ADM that USA hockey tried to put out was the single beiggest farce ever, second only to the US National dev program. They have put good old boys in charge of it who are political and have no idea how to teach kids. Roger Grillo from Brown is now a skills guru? Talk about systems>>>

Kids from 8-15 all over the country are not being taught sustems for one simple reason. They are being coached by dads, the vast majority of whom are good guys but clueless, wouldnt know a sysytem if it bit them in nose.


The other big problem is midgets, outside Michigan are a joke as well. MN has their elite league, mass is starting one up and is not far behind.

So many problems in USA hockey this board would blink like an XMAS tree if we ever disected tehm in detail

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

So much negativity ...

Not all American players go the Major Junior route because they can't get into school. Luke Lynes, who is with UNB and won a CIS championship with them last season and now has a nice ring, turned down an NCAA scholarship (Bowling Green?) to go OHL, because he thought it was a better route to get drafted. While playing for Brampton he got drafted by his hometown Washington Capitals in the 4th round in 2006. Did he sign with them after junior? No, but he did achieve his dream of getting drafted. Would he have got drafted if he went NCAA? Who knows, but the important part is that he BELIEVED he had a better chance of getting drafted if he played Major Junior. After the minor pros for a few months he now using his education package from junior to attend UNB and play for national championships. What is wrong with that?

Kids regardless of nationality usually pick MJ because they think its their best path to making it to the pros. Luke Lynes is likely not going to make it.

MJ increases the likelihood of getting drafted but I doubt it increases your chances of truly making it in the NHL moreso than going to college. But we'll never know which one's better because the better players go to MJ compared to college and have a higher percentage make the NHL than the college kids. Until the level of players is close then we can't say for certain which one is better. For the most part, the CIS schools are behind most of the academic institutions in the USA. But then again, most of the top players even collegiately don't stay all four years.

[Puck Swami]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

They dont get twice the practice time and weight room time

Go look at the London Knoghts schedule and then tell us that.

They are playing vs older and stronger kids because they are in fact, older.

When they are 22 year old juniors or seniors, the major junior kids are playing against 22 year old ahl kids, who are slightly above the ncaa kids

Major Junior players get 2-3 practices per week, because they are playing three or four games per week. College players get 5-6 practices a week, because they are only playing game twice a week. Simple math.

Weight room time and dedicated strength and conditioning coaching is also far better in the NCAA because there is more time for it.

And the vast majority of Major Junior players never get to the AHL to play against 22 year olds. Most of the them end up out of of hockey at age 19 or 20. A tiny handful will see more pro hockey, and some more will go to CIS hockey but the fact remains that only 20% of all MJ players will ever get a university degree, compared with 80% of NCAA players.

Major Junior is a good route for kids who can't handle college work and its a good route to the NHL not because it's a superior experience to the NCAA, but because more of those in NHL power chose that route themseleves.

A great player will get to the NHL no matter what route he chooses. But most players in both systems won't get there. So for the 90-95% who don't make it to the NHL, it seems to me that getting the degree is a better overall strategy.

[Slap Shot]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

There are many smart hockey people involved in youth hockey in MN who feel this decline is due to too many games and not enough practices for the youth ranks. Lots of kids who play a lot of games year around, not many rink rats who skate outside and develop skills and moves anymore. Lots of good system players, not high end skill players.

This was very much the case for several years, but I can name 3 very prominent youth systems in the TC that took specific measures to place more of an emphasis on practice and training and less on playing games without blinking an eye. My guess (or hope at least) is this trend has probably spread to many others.

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

For the most part, the CIS schools are behind most of the academic institutions in the USA.

And you know that because ...?

All CIS hockey-playing schools are public, provincially funded universities - state schools in American parlance.

The reputable QS World University Ratings for 2009 http://www.topuniversities.com/unive...s/2009/results(and this is an academic rating ...) does have Harvard 1st, Yale 3rd and Princeton 8th, but their next D1 hockey school is Cornell at 15th. Go down a little further, there is CIS's McGill at 18 ahead of Michigan at 19. The next hockey school is the CIS's Toronto at 29th, followed by Brown at 31. Next hockey school? The CIS's UBC at 40th. Then BU at 54 and the CIS's Alberta at 59.

So where does your blanket statement come from?

[CCtig]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Major Junior players get 2-3 practices per week, because they are playing three or four games per week. College players get 5-6 practices a week, because they are only playing game twice a week. Simple math.

Weight room time and dedicated strength and conditioning coaching is also far better in the NCAA because there is more time for it.

And the vast majority of Major Junior players never get to the AHL to play against 22 year olds. Most of the them end up out of of hockey at age 19 or 20. A tiny handful will see more pro hockey, and some more will go to CIS hockey but the fact remains that only 20% of all MJ players will ever get a university degree, compared with 80% of NCAA players.

Major Junior is a good route for kids who can't handle college work and its a good route to the NHL not because it's a superior experience to the NCAA, but because more of those in NHL power chose that route themseleves.

A great player will get to the NHL no matter what route he chooses. But most players in both systems won't get there. So for the 90-95% who don't make it to the NHL, it seems to me that getting the degree is a better overall strategy.

Amen! Well said!!

[Puck Swami]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

For the most part, the CIS schools are behind most of the academic institutions in the USA.

If you are a Canadian kid who wants to work in Canada, a Canadian degree is a more well recognized option in most cases. Harvard and Yale are great degrees in both countries, but a kid who wants to work in Toronto after hockey is probably better off going to the University of Toronto than he is going to BU or Wisconsin. Of course, if the Canadian kid wants to work in the USA, an American degree is a better option.

[bothman]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

As a Harvard fan, we have certainly lost some recent recruits to MJ (Zach Mitchell immediately comes to mind).

With that said, we also lost Jesse Lane back in the warly 90s to Major Junior a few weeks into his freshman season. At the time he was a fairly coveted recruit across the college hockey ranks.

Although Jesse did give up his ability to play college hockey, he was allowed to come back to Harvard and finish his degree (similar to what a Louis Leblanc will do if he leaves early as prdicted).

I know that the crux of this discussion focuses on the decision whether to attend college or MJ prior while still in high school, but I'm wondering (Kenny Ryan at BC comes to mind) if colleges can preclude the ability of a student to come back to get the degree if that student leaves for MJ as opposed to turning pro.

Thoughts?

[HarleyMC]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

I don't see much hope in anyone negotiating to stop the exodus from the US to MJ. The important thing here is what is the motive behind it? The NHL has always favored the Canada pipeline anyway because of the experience factor. Is it any wonder that the value of being a student/athlete has become secondary to focusing on hockey skills development alone and having a better chance at making the big cash in the NHL?

[Hokydad]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Major Junior players get 2-3 practices per week, because they are playing three or four games per week. College players get 5-6 practices a week, because they are only playing game twice a week. Simple math.

Weight room time and dedicated strength and conditioning coaching is also far better in the NCAA because there is more time for it.

And the vast majority of Major Junior players never get to the AHL to play against 22 year olds. Most of the them end up out of of hockey at age 19 or 20. A tiny handful will see more pro hockey, and some more will go to CIS hockey but the fact remains that only 20% of all MJ players will ever get a university degree, compared with 80% of NCAA players.

Major Junior is a good route for kids who can't handle college work and its a good route to the NHL not because it's a superior experience to the NCAA, but because more of those in NHL power chose that route themseleves.

A great player will get to the NHL no matter what route he chooses. But most players in both systems won't get there. So for the 90-95% who don't make it to the NHL, it seems to me that getting the degree is a better overall strategy.

Major junior kids season and camps etc are twice as long + as college hockey. I can asure you that a kid on the London knights is getting more quality practices per year then any kid on Boxton College. I was given the handout by the Hunter brothers that showed exactly how many times they lift, how many times they practice, how many times they see their sports psychologist, how many times they do classroom etc. way more then any kid at BC will ever do.

[Hokydad]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck Swami
Major Junior players get 2-3 practices per week, because they are playing three or four games per week. College players get 5-6 practices a week, because they are only playing game twice a week. Simple math.

Weight room time and dedicated strength and conditioning coaching is also far better in the NCAA because there is more time for it.

And the vast majority of Major Junior players never get to the AHL to play against 22 year olds. Most of the them end up out of of hockey at age 19 or 20. A tiny handful will see more pro hockey, and some more will go to CIS hockey but the fact remains that only 20% of all MJ players will ever get a university degree, compared with 80% of NCAA players.

Major Junior is a good route for kids who can't handle college work and its a good route to the NHL not because it's a superior experience to the NCAA, but because more of those in NHL power chose that route themseleves.

A great player will get to the NHL no matter what route he chooses. But most players in both systems won't get there. So for the 90-95% who don't make it to the NHL, it seems to me that getting the degree is a better overall strategy.

Amen! Well said!!

And Yes, I agree that kids should go D 1 route.
Thats us, not the Canadians who could care less about coming to an American college. Just like our kids would be better of going to an engineering school in Bombay India, but we dont care...

Even the NHL GM's are saying to go that route... College is best choice but good luck telling that to a kid from Moose Jaw and his dad.

[goldy_331]

Re: College Hockey amps up war on Canadian major junior....

Well the they should look in the mirror because they were the ones running it.

It might surprise you to learn that there are different views within the hockey community here and not all are held by those who "run it". One problem is always the parents' and kids' expectations. Game are fun for kids and parents, practices are too much like work. Even if many coaches and board members believe that fewer games and more practices would lead to better development, that doesn't mean they can make that happen. First they have to convince their "constituency" of it, then they can implement the change.