Fire Mike Eaves?

[Almington]

FWIW, early departures since 2010:

Wisconsin--9
Boston U--8
Denver--7
Michigan State--5
North Dakota--4
Notre Dame--4
Boston College--4
Minnesota-Duluth--4

5 of those were D, none of which were expected to stay more than 3 years.

That leaves the four forwards, three of whom left one year earlier than expected. And the other had been injury prone and done next to nothing at UW.

The problem with pointing out the early departures is that it just seems like another excuse. Like blaming graduations for having players leave, early departures are not the issue, unexpected departures are With the exception of Schultz, whos departure after last season was not unexpected, none would be on the team today and account for this current teams abysmal 1-9-1 record thus far. Or would you be pinning your hopes that Clark would have had an absolute monster year?

If they all played in the USHL than that is a remarkable streak and indicates that either the league is sufficiently shallow that success is a poor indicator of future potential or sub-par scouting in identifying those players (which I acknowledge is more art than science).

[solovsfett]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Even though I know you hate me Solo, you are one of my favorite Badger posters. You are old school like I am, and a good dude. I'm sorry if I was a jerk to you in the past, and I hope the Badgers turn things around. Our rivalry isn't as fun when one of our programs are down.

I don't hate anyone on this board..I only get exasperated at times with certain lines of arguments, but that's neither here nor there. I agree with you UW and MN (also Nodak) need to be consistently great. and that's what made the rivalries in the 80's and early 90's fun

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Yes, although I added Charlie Coyle to BU's number.

That's what I thought. 8 players eventually left early from the 2010-2011 North Dakota squad alone (Bruneteau, Cichy, Dell, Dickin, Gregoire, Hextall, Hill, and Nelson). Throw in Corey Fienhage following the 2010 season, and North Dakota has had 9 players leave early in that span. Of course, only 4 (Dell, Gregoire, Hextall, and Nelson) went immediately to the pros. Bruneteau (Vermont), Cichy (Western Michigan), Dickin (Manitoba), and Hill (WI-Superior?) transferred, and Fienhage went to the WHL (now plays in ECHL/AHL).

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

5 of those were D, none of which were expected to stay more than 3 years.

That leaves the four forwards, three of whom left one year earlier than expected. And the other had been injury prone and done next to nothing at UW.

The problem with pointing out the early departures is that it just seems like another excuse. Like blaming graduations for having players leave, early departures are not the issue, unexpected departures are With the exception of Schultz, whos departure after last season was not unexpected, none would be on the team today and account for this current teams abysmal 1-9-1 record thus far. Or would you be pinning your hopes that Clark would have had an absolute monster year?

If they all played in the USHL than that is a remarkable streak and indicates that either the league is sufficiently shallow that success is a poor indicator of future potential or sub-par scouting in identifying those players (which I acknowledge is more art than science).

Simply pointing it out, nothing more than that. Wasn't saying that it has anything to do with the current team, but it has certainly had a significant effect over the past few seasons, specifically Stepan, Murray and Smith.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

That's what I thought. 8 players eventually left early from the 2010-2011 North Dakota squad alone (Bruneteau, Cichy, Dell, Dickin, Gregoire, Hextall, Hill, and Nelson). Throw in Corey Fienhage following the 2010 season, and North Dakota has had 9 players leave early in that span. Of course, only 4 (Dell, Gregoire, Hextall, and Nelson) went immediately to the pros. Bruneteau (Vermont), Cichy (Western Michigan), Dickin (Manitoba), and Hill (WI-Superior?) transferred, and Fienhage went to the WHL (now plays in ECHL/AHL).

Every school has natural attrition which is why I didn't include guys like Matt Thurber, etc. on the Wisconsin list and limited it to just pro departures.

[solovsfett]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

Bringing ANY players in directly from the WIAA has been, IMHO, the biggest mistakes the Eaves has made in the last few years. As a GENERAL rule, if a player isn't a first or second round NHL draft pick they just don't have the combination of skill, maturity, and experience to be a significant factor in the college game at 18 or 19.

I don't have a problem with offering to these kids early, but make it clear that they will have to spend AT least one (and often two) season playing in the ushl. You should NEVER be both an extraordinarily young team AND a team full of grinders and role players.

I don't think that either Turris or Skille should ever have played on game for UW. If a player does not intend to spend at least three seasons in college (I believe that Pavs, C Smith, and Stepan all initially intended to stay 3 years) they are going to be more of a distraction and effort than they add, IMHO again.

I definitely agree with you on that first point. players from the WIAA unless they're playing for Superior or maybe Northland Pines (eagle river) don't face consistently good or great teams so these wisconsin kids generally need 2 years seasoning in the USHL if they're going to make an impact in college, IF they make an impact.

Where I would disagree is Turris and Skille, I think they were great gets. However, they received terrible advice along the way, imo Turris should have stayed 3 years at UW and Skille probably all 4. In retrospect I wonder if they'd agree.

It's interesting how the NHL game has changed and now seems to favor college kids in style of play (less clutching and grabbing, etc)...it's made a significant impact at UW yes,but still you have to say 1/2 dozen coaches have found their way in the new landscape and Eaves needs to learn to navigate this quickly.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

It's interesting how the NHL game has changed and now seems to favor college kids in style of play (less clutching and grabbing, etc)...it's made a significant impact at UW yes,but still you have to say 1/2 dozen coaches have found their way in the new landscape and Eaves needs to learn to navigate this quickly.

I don't think the NHL game favors college kids style of play, it favors paying college kids pennies on the dollar on entry level contracts.

[solovsfett]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I don't think the NHL game favors college kids style of play, it favors paying college kids pennies on the dollar on entry level contracts.

I don't know if I agree with that. I think the trend is the NHL actually picking up the good to great NCAA players far earlier than they ever used to more because they're recognizing the talent there. in years past guys like Rafalski not only stayed 4 years at their University but then had to go overseas to for more seasoning even (in Rafalski's case 4 more years IIRC). If Rafalski were in college today he'd probably be a 1 or 2 year guy.

[Almington]

Where I would disagree is Turris and Skille, I think they were great gets. However, they received terrible advice along the way, imo Turris should have stayed 3 years at UW and Skille probably all 4. In retrospect I wonder if they'd agree.

The issue was that they were committed to staying at UW for as little time as possible before moving on to the NHL, most likely only one season. If they had come to UW with the intention of staying until they were ready for the next level then it wouldn't have been an issue.

I want players who want to be at UW because it is UW and not just because it is the shortest pit stop on the way to the NHL.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I don't know if I agree with that. I think the trend is the NHL actually picking up the good to great NCAA players far earlier than they ever used to more because they're recognizing the talent there. in years past guys like Rafalski not only stayed 4 years at their University but then had to go overseas to for more seasoning even (in Rafalski's case 4 more years IIRC). If Rafalski were in college today he'd probably be a 1 or 2 year guy.

Exactly, and it's because of the CBA that was signed after the 2004-05 lockout. It became significantly more financially viable for NHL teams to poach college talent and play them. The reason they need to do it is because that's when the NHL implemented the salary cap. In order to pay the top guys 7-8 million a year, they need to offset that with cheap talent and they can do that easily by pulling out NCAA guys for pennies on the dollar. The reason they pull them early is because they are cheap talent. It's about dollars, not ability.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

The issue was that they were committed to staying at UW for as little time as possible before moving on to the NHL, most likely only one season. If they had come to UW with the intention of staying until they were ready for the next level then it wouldn't have been an issue.

I want players who want to be at UW because it is UW and not just because it is the shortest pit stop on the way to the NHL.

If Turris was looking for the shortest pit stop to the NHL, he would have taken the (rumored) six figure offer from the Vancouver Giants of the WHL instead of playing for Burnaby and then coming to Wisconsin for a year. I'm not sure what changed, whether it be advice from his agent (Kurt Overhardt), or the alure of Gretzky, but something changed as I don't believe he ever planned on being a one and done.

From a Wisconsin perspective, when he committed at 15 the kid wasn't even projected as a first round draft pick, let alone a top 5 pick. Hell, even going into his draft year he was a bubble first rounder. UW had no reason to believe he was a one and done when they offered him at 15.

[Almington]

Exactly, and it's because of the CBA that was signed after the 2004-05 lockout. It became significantly more financially viable for NHL teams to poach college talent and play them. The reason they need to do it is because that's when the NHL implemented the salary cap. In order to pay the top guys 7-8 million a year, they need to offset that with cheap talent and they can do that easily by pulling out NCAA guys for pennies on the dollar. The reason they pull them early is because they are cheap talent. It's about dollars, not ability.

I don't think it's an either or issue. Just about every player in the NHL playing on an ELC is underpaid and college players are just another source of cheap talent. The key is that it IS talent and the NHL has become aware of this to the point that teams that don't scout college well are at a disadvantage (same can also be said of Europe) because they are missing out on a source of about 25% of the players (about another 25% is European).

My opinion is that the NHL/AHL, college, and MJ are as alike now as they have ever been. Sure, differences still exist but all three have attempted to cut down on obstruction and put the spotlight on the skill level. I also think the the easy of video sharing and level of communication and interaction between the three has helped to erase many of the differences in ideology as people copy and implement what works.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Fire Mike Eaves?

I don't think it's an either or issue. Just about every player in the NHL playing on an ELC is underpaid and college players are just another source of cheap talent. The key is that it IS talent and the NHL has become aware of this to the point that teams that don't scout college well are at a disadvantage (same can also be said of Europe) because they are missing out on a source of about 25% of the players (about another 25% is European).

My opinion is that the NHL/AHL, college, and MJ are as alike now as they have ever been. Sure, differences still exist but all three have attempted to cut down on obstruction and put the spotlight on the skill level. I also think the the easy of video sharing and level of communication and interaction between the three has helped to erase many of the differences in ideology as people copy and implement what works.

I don't disagree with what you're saying but the MJ kids were getting signed regardless as they have to be signed to NHL ELC's at 20 anyways so they're already in the system. The significant increase in college players being signed was more financial than talent. With the implement of the salary cap teams needed to get creative on balancing the dollars, and college is a good source of cheap talent. Obviously the talent level in college has been on an upward trend which adds to it, there's no denying that.

[Almington]

If Turris was looking for the shortest pit stop to the NHL, he would have taken the (rumored) six figure offer from the Vancouver Giants of the WHL instead of playing for Burnaby and then coming to Wisconsin for a year. I'm not sure what changed, whether it be advice from his agent (Kurt Overhardt), or the alure of Gretzky, but something changed as I don't believe he ever planned on being a one and done.

From a Wisconsin perspective, when he committed at 15 the kid wasn't even projected as a first round draft pick, let alone a top 5 pick. Hell, even going into his draft year he was a bubble first rounder. UW had no reason to believe he was a one and done when they offered him at 15.

I think what happened was that he was effectively anointed by Gretzky as the next great player and that was pressure that he couldn't resist. Maybe he didn't get the best advice from his "advisor".

Skille and kessel were always going to be compared to each other and once Kessel left UMN, I think that Skille felt a lot of pressure to keep up with Kessel. I think the Skille's injury in 06-07 didn't help matters as it highlighted the risks of staying at UW.

Perhaps I'm being ovely harsh to both of them considering I don't have any real first hand knowledge of what they were going through.

I still believe the one-and-done players should in general be avoided. It's hard for any top 10 pick to resist the pressures that they are facing of making the step to the NHL until they are ready.

[Almington]

I don't disagree with what you're saying but the MJ kids were getting signed regardless as they have to be signed to NHL ELC's at 20 anyways so they're already in the system. The significant increase in college players being signed was more financial than talent. With the implement of the salary cap teams needed to get creative on balancing the dollars, and college is a good source of cheap talent. Obviously the talent level in college has been on an upward trend which adds to it, there's no denying that.

If the talent level in college was not comparable to MJ the players would not be signed. The MJ teams would generate more than enough cheap young talent to feed the NHL if the college players were not equally talented.