WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, What?

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Half full of what, exactly?

Great point.

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

That is crazy if you really only think it is 3 forwards who developed under Eaves. Take a look at Blake Geof's stats over his time at UW. Recruits are like draft picks an educated gamble, some kids aren't going to pan out regardless of the coach or situation.

The numbers will tell the tale, but they are not forthcoming anytime soon, from me anyway. The key will be defining development. What % increase in points constitutes development?

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

The numbers will tell the tale, but they are not forthcoming anytime soon, from me anyway. The key will be defining development. What % increase in points constitutes development?

Who even says points necessarily constitutes development? So much more to the game.

[bucky15]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Who even says points necessarily constitutes development? So much more to the game.

I think the earlier argument was based off forwards offensive development under Eaves. Blake had 6 points in 36 GP his first year and ended with a 50 point hobey senior year. What the NHL stouts like is the way Eaves holds his forwards accountable in the defensive end, which would go with the latest point.

[Almington]

Who even says points necessarily constitutes development? So much more to the game.

At the end of the day, you don't win games if you don't score goals. When you have 60% of the forwards under Eaves with career lines of 25 goals and 35 assists in 140 games your team is going to struggle to win games. When 2 of every 3 forwards in your lineup are grinders you are going to struggle to win games because your team lacks offensive depth.

[solovsfett]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

At the end of the day, you don't win games if you don't score goals. When you have 60% of the forwards under Eaves with career lines of 25 goals and 35 assists in 140 games your team is going to struggle to win games. When 2 of every 3 forwards in your lineup are grinders you are going to struggle to win games because your team lacks offensive depth.

This. 100% This.

I won't argue Eaves hasn't developed some guys, that's been pretty apparent. however the above quote points to mis-guided recruiting imo and it's spot on.

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

. however the above quote points to mis-guided recruiting imo and it's spot on.

Were Gorowsky 2, 12, 4, 30 and Turnbull 11, 6, 2, 20 guys Eaves should not have gone after? They both put up 50 pts in the ushl. Gorowsky was Mr. Hockey in Rodentsota. Once they both got onto the ice their Sr. years, they did produce, but Eaves wasted them away on the bench/mis-used them their first 3 years. Look at Davies, put up 71 pts in the ushl, scored 24, 24, 23 pts his first 3 years, then of course had the 52 pt sr year. His development was flat for 3 years, then benefited from being on a team loaded with NHL players. Joudrey had 71 in the sjhl, then scored 22 24 18 29; that's not much of an improvement at all over 4 years. Matt Ford 68 pts in the ushl, then 10, 7, 13, 9 for Eaves, yikes. Ross Carlson had 50 in the USHL, then 17, 29, 23, 23. Dowell played for the usdp, didn't score a lot there (21 pts over 2 years, but neither did Earl), 19, 26, 20, 25, for a flat development, but obviously he had other great qualities. There's a lot of no improvements there. Now to be fair, guys like Earl, Geoffrion, Stepan, and possibly Murray, Street and Pavs to a minor extents did develop, though all these guys came in highly touted and answered the bell. When you have 2/3 of your team being grinders to start, when you miss on 1/2 of the other 1/3 you think will be scorers, you end up with a team on 5/6ths grinders and 1/6 scorers. And when you have early departure possibilities, you have to bring in even more high end guys because you're going to lose some. There's nothing wrong with a 3rd line that can score one year who will end up being 2nd/1st line guys the next year due to defections.

[markwojo]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Were Gorowsky 2, 12, 4, 30 and Turnbull 11, 6, 2, 20 guys Eaves should not have gone after? They both put up 50 pts in the ushl. Gorowsky was Mr. Hockey in Rodentsota. Once they both got onto the ice their Sr. years, they did produce, but Eaves wasted them away on the bench/mis-used them their first 3 years. Look at Davies, put up 71 pts in the ushl, scored 24, 24, 23 pts his first 3 years, then of course had the 52 pt sr year. His development was flat for 3 years, then benefited from being on a team loaded with NHL players. Joudrey had 71 in the sjhl, then scored 22 24 18 29; that's not much of an improvement at all over 4 years. Matt Ford 68 pts in the ushl, then 10, 7, 13, 9 for Eaves, yikes. Ross Carlson had 50 in the USHL, then 17, 29, 23, 23. Dowell played for the usdp, didn't score a lot there (21 pts over 2 years, but neither did Earl), 19, 26, 20, 25, for a flat development, but obviously he had other great qualities. There's a lot of no improvements there. Now to be fair, guys like Earl, Geoffrion, Stepan, and possibly Murray, Street and Pavs to a minor extents did develop, though all these guys came in highly touted and answered the bell. When you have 2/3 of your team being grinders to start, when you miss on 1/2 of the other 1/3 you think will be scorers, you end up with a team on 5/6ths grinders and 1/6 scorers. And when you have early departure possibilities, you have to bring in even more high end guys because you're going to lose some. There's nothing wrong with a 3rd line that can score one year who will end up being 2nd/1st line guys the next year due to defections.

Wait, what? Because every guy with accolades coming in didn't set the world on fire it's all Eaves fault? Can you tell me which coach never has a guy disappoint? Guys that put up decent numbers in the USHL don't see their numbers drop at the next level? How many points did Burish put up in the USHL verses in college verses what did he did in the NHL once he got there? Pretty sure most players produce less as they progess up the food chain to higher levels of hockey.

[bucky15]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Wait, what? Because every guy with accolades coming in didn't set the world on fire it's all Eaves fault? Can you tell me which coach never has a guy disappoint? Guys that put up decent numbers in the USHL don't see their numbers drop at the next level? How many points did Burish put up in the USHL verses in college verses what did he did in the NHL once he got there? Pretty sure most players produce less as they progess up the food chain to higher levels of hockey.

I can't agree more. Take a look at Andy Bohmbach's numbers, this is someone who was a late pick up that ended up playing some games in the AHL after UW. I think people are missing the point that Eaves has recruited too much of one type of player 3/4 years ago and it is showing on the ice at the moment with the grind style of play. It is unrealistic to have every forward recruited to put up over 60 points in his career. I also think players like Barnes/LeBate/Woods/Navin need to step up and fill these secondary scoring voids in the current team.

[Almington]

I can't agree more. Take a look at Andy Bohmbach's numbers, this is someone who was a late pick up that ended up playing some games in the AHL after UW. I think people are missing the point that Eaves has recruited too much of one type of player 3/4 years ago and it is showing on the ice at the moment with the grind style of play. It is unrealistic to have every forward recruited to put up over 60 points in his career. I also think players like Barnes/LeBate/Woods/Navin need to step up and fill these secondary scoring voids in the current team.

If a forward can't average 15 points a season over 4 years what are they doing playing college hockey. For example:
Fr: 3g-6a-9p
So: 4g-8a-12p
Jr: 6g-12a-18p
Sr: 7g-14a-21p
Total: 20g-40a-60p

I don't think any of those totals are unreasonable for most college players to put up in a season.

[markwojo]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

If a forward can't average 15 points a season over 4 years what are they doing playing college hockey. For example:
Fr: 3g-6a-9p
So: 4g-8a-12p
Jr: 6g-12a-18p
Sr: 7g-14a-21p
Total: 20g-40a-60p

I don't think any of those totals are unreasonable for most college players to put up in a season.

Yes and no. If said forward is playing 15 minutes a night and gets some PP time....absolutely yes and then some. Is said forward plays on a checking line getting 2 or 3 shifts a period...maybe not. It depends on what role they play on your team and not everyone's role will be to put up points.

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

I can't agree more. Take a look at Andy Bohmbach's numbers, this is someone who was a late pick up that ended up playing some games in the AHL after UW. I think people are missing the point that Eaves has recruited too much of one type of player 3/4 years ago and it is showing on the ice at the moment with the grind style of play. It is unrealistic to have every forward recruited to put up over 60 points in his career. I also think players like Barnes/LeBate/Woods/Navin need to step up and fill these secondary scoring voids in the current team.

My point was that these guys had tons of potential, to end up like Pavs or Stepan, and none of them got better in their 4 yrs @ UW. If you are a higher end scorer in the level below and don't double your point average from your fr to sr years (if you stay that long), something is wrong.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

My point was that these guys had tons of potential, to end up like Pavs or Stepan, and none of them got better in their 4 yrs @ UW. If you are a higher end scorer in the level below and don't double your point average from your fr to sr years (if you stay that long), something is wrong.

Maybe they're just not good enough players. The level of the USHL compared to the WCHA is night and day. Kids can get away with stuff in the USHL that they obviously can't at this level. Tom Gorowsky couldn't skate a lick. It didn't matter in Minnesota high school hockey on the best team in the state when he put up a zillion points or even when he did well in the USHL. That flaw was exposed in the WCHA and he couldn't keep up. Finally, when he was a savvy senior he was able to produce.

Every case needs to be taken on an individual basis. I hate blanket statements on players.

[Almington]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Maybe they're just not good enough players. The level of the USHL compared to the WCHA is night and day. Kids can get away with stuff in the USHL that they obviously can't at this level. Tom Gorowsky couldn't skate a lick. It didn't matter in Minnesota high school hockey on the best team in the state when he put up a zillion points or even when he did well in the USHL. That flaw was exposed in the WCHA and he couldn't keep up. Finally, when he was a savvy senior he was able to produce.

Every case needs to be taken on an individual basis. I hate blanket statements on players.

In my experence, the players that produced in the USHL (or any of the Canadian Junior Leagues) and don't produce in the WCHA are generally held back by their skating ability (and in hindsight it becomes clear that they often had their numbers in juniors inflated who their linemates were and the system that the team were running particularly on the PP) because skating ability is what allows you to generate good chances 5-on-5.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

In my experence, the players that produced in the USHL (or any of the Canadian Junior Leagues) and don't produce in the WCHA are generally held back by their skating ability (and in hindsight it becomes clear that they often had their numbers in juniors inflated who their linemates were and the system that the team were running particularly on the PP) because skating ability is what allows you to generate good chances 5-on-5.

Ding. Ding. Ding. We've got a winner.