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WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, What?

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  • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

    How is Rumpel doing?

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    • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

      I was trying to think of all the early departures we've seen under Eaves (since the 2002 off-season), and I decided to try to make a definitive list. Let me know what I'm missing or have incorrect:

      Early Departure (signed pro contract)
      Jason Clark
      Robbie Earl
      Jake Gardiner
      Cody Goloubef
      Jamie McBain
      Ryan McDonagh
      Jordy Murray
      Joe Pavelski
      Joe Piskula
      Justin Schultz
      Jack Skille
      Brendan Smith
      Craig Smith
      Derek Stepan
      Ryan Suter
      Kyle Turris

      Transferred to Another Program
      Ken Rowe
      Tom Sawatske
      Matt Thurber

      Left for Major Junior
      Matt Auffrey
      Alex Leavitt
      Nigel Williams

      Left Hockey in General/Went Down to USHL/CIS/D-III
      Tom Bardis
      Zach Bearson
      Joe Campbell
      Patrick Daly
      John Funk
      Mark Heatley
      Jake Heisler
      Chris Hickey
      Chris Julka
      Tyler Lapic
      Joey McElroy
      Joe Simon
      If you want to be a BADGER, just come along with me

      BRING BACK PAT RICHTER!!!


      At his graduation ceremony from the U of Minnesota, my cousin got a keychain. When asked what UW gave her for graduation, my sister said, "A degree from a University that matters."

      Canned music is a pathetic waste of your time.

      Comment


      • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

        Originally posted by Almington View Post
        In my experence, the players that produced in the USHL (or any of the Canadian Junior Leagues) and don't produce in the WCHA are generally held back by their skating ability (and in hindsight it becomes clear that they often had their numbers in juniors inflated who their linemates were and the system that the team were running particularly on the PP) because skating ability is what allows you to generate good chances 5-on-5.
        When a coach scouts a recruit, they can see how good their skating is. They can either pass on them because it sucks or know how to make them a better skater. There are all sorts of skating experts out there. Anyone who has played youth hockey or have had their kids play youth hockey has had the opportunity to have their kids work with an expert. Certainly there are exprts at the collegiate level and higher who can be brought in to help someone become a better skater. It's not easy to break old bad habits, but it is possible. I agree skating can be a factor in development, but I don't think it's a complete dead end.
        Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
        "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
        Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

        Comment


        • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

          Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
          When a coach scouts a recruit, they can see how good their skating is. They can either pass on them because it sucks or know how to make them a better skater. There are all sorts of skating experts out there. Anyone who has played youth hockey or have had their kids play youth hockey has had the opportunity to have their kids work with an expert. Certainly there are exprts at the collegiate level and higher who can be brought in to help someone become a better skater. It's not easy to break old bad habits, but it is possible. I agree skating can be a factor in development, but I don't think it's a complete dead end.
          The problem is that coaches are trying to make decisions on how a 16/17 year old kid is going to develop. Some are done growing, while otheres are not. Yes you can always improve skating, but some kids will never improve enough to keep up at the next level. There are way to many variables to simply say taking some clinics will make a kid a better skater to the degree needed at a higher level (how hard of a worker is the kid? what are their genetics (can't teach size)? will girls/schoolwork/booze screw them up? are they even willing to realize they need help (these kids have been highly sucessful and told they are the crap all the way up from mite)? ). Make no mistake....skating is THE deadend for most players when they hit the end of the line in hockey...some just can't overcome it. I know a guy that does a little advising to NHL scouts and occasionally looks at kids...the first and second question is always can the kid skate with hockey sense being a distant third.

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          • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

            Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
            When a coach scouts a recruit, they can see how good their skating is. They can either pass on them because it sucks or know how to make them a better skater. There are all sorts of skating experts out there. Anyone who has played youth hockey or have had their kids play youth hockey has had the opportunity to have their kids work with an expert. Certainly there are exprts at the collegiate level and higher who can be brought in to help someone become a better skater. It's not easy to break old bad habits, but it is possible. I agree skating can be a factor in development, but I don't think it's a complete dead end.
            Everyone has limits to their physical ability. No amount of training time and developmental expertise is going to turn me (or just about anyone else) into an elite level athlete because of my physical limitations. We are not just talking about being above average or merely good at something, we are talking about being in a truly elite group, in the top few hundred or so for their age group of millions of young men. Some player are just not going to be able to move up and be successful at the next level.

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            • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

              I should note that you can get away with not being a great skater, but you need to be exceptional in other areas including anticipation and hockey sense. Joe Pavelski is not a good skater, it's the reason he wasn't drafted until the 7th round and spent an extra year in the USHL. But Pavelski is one of the most intelligent players ever to play at the UW and is off the charts in a number of different areas obviously.

              Michael Mersch couldn't skate a lick coming into UW and was left off the U.S. U18 team for the world championships. At UW he's really worked on it with the coaches and it's noticeable this season how much better he is on his feet. It's obviously shown up in the goal department as well. He's still got a ways to go to turn himself into an NHL type guy, but the improvement in this area makes me feel like it's possible down the road with his offensive skill set.

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              • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

                A good discussion on the skating thing. I just have to think that yes there are physical limitations as to skating ability, but these guys are way above average athletes (probably an understatement), so you'd think they'd have the ability to improve their skating to a certain level. History does tell us some can, but some just can't. As markwojo said about the scout who said skating is 1 and 1a in evaluation, how can a guy like Eaves bring in a guy who just doesn't have that ncaa ability to skate? It sure seems like you can't bank on it improving enough to be able to utilize their other hockey skills. I guess I'd stay away from guys like that.
                Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
                "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
                Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

                Comment


                • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

                  Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                  A good discussion on the skating thing. I just have to think that yes there are physical limitations as to skating ability, but these guys are way above average athletes (probably an understatement), so you'd think they'd have the ability to improve their skating to a certain level. History does tell us some can, but some just can't. As markwojo said about the scout who said skating is 1 and 1a in evaluation, how can a guy like Eaves bring in a guy who just doesn't have that ncaa ability to skate? It sure seems like you can't bank on it improving enough to be able to utilize their other hockey skills. I guess I'd stay away from guys like that.
                  quick thoughts:
                  I think Eaves has brought in more than his fair share of guys that can't skate including "mr hitch in his get-up, Matt Ford", Gorowsky and many many others, Mitchell, Mersch etc. That indicates a willingness to overlook that component. however I think that's dangerous (regardless of how well he thinks he can coach and condition kids)

                  Skating is the most important aspect of the game obviously, I look at CC, DU, MN, BC, Michigan, they don't have many clunkers out there and even their big guys can skate, so I don't really know why Eaves chooses to go after guys -more often than any other coach it seems- that are terrible or average skaters. I honestly think it's because he can control these types of players moreso than the hotshots AND he thinks he can coach and condition them up. it's also (for now) my reasoning behind why he prefers a team or 3rd liners, control. much easier to convince the Little-Dahl-Little's of the world to buy into the D-zone responsibility than
                  it would be the Rau's of the world
                  Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                  "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                  "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                  Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                  Comment


                  • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

                    Originally posted by solovsfett View Post
                    quick thoughts:
                    I think Eaves has brought in more than his fair share of guys that can't skate including "mr hitch in his get-up, Matt Ford", Gorowsky and many many others, Mitchell, Mersch etc. That indicates a willingness to overlook that component. however I think that's dangerous (regardless of how well he thinks he can coach and condition kids)

                    Skating is the most important aspect of the game obviously, I look at CC, DU, MN, BC, Michigan, they don't have many clunkers out there and even their big guys can skate, so I don't really know why Eaves chooses to go after guys -more often than any other coach it seems- that are terrible or average skaters. I honestly think it's because he can control these types of players moreso than the hotshots AND he thinks he can coach and condition them up. it's also (for now) my reasoning behind why he prefers a team or 3rd liners, control. much easier to convince the Little-Dahl-Little's of the world to buy into the D-zone responsibility than
                    it would be the Rau's of the world
                    That's quite the conspiracy theory. Nowhere near accurate, but quite the conspiracy regardless.

                    Comment


                    • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

                      Originally posted by Chuck Schwartz View Post
                      That's quite the conspiracy theory. Nowhere near accurate, but quite the conspiracy regardless.
                      eh, it's a thought as to why his recruiting tactics changed (which I believe he stated as much in 2007), why so many grinders et al. I know you're a glass 1/2 full guy w/Eaves, I used to be as well. changed my mind in 2008. regardless as to whether Eaves was forced by early departures into recruiting avg. players (which I'd argue is all his fault since Hakstol manages this just fine amongst others) I stand by the fact he's an ultimate control freak and while he can land a good forward now and then we'll never see a high flying team w/him at the helm. He just won't tolerate what comes with players like a Heater, Rau et al which is occasional defensive zone lapses or weak coverage with the upside being what we all know and have witnessed from said players
                      Last edited by solovsfett; 12-18-2012, 11:57 PM.
                      Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                      "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                      "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                      Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                      Comment


                      • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

                        Originally posted by solovsfett View Post
                        eh, it's a thought as to why his recruiting tactics changed (which I believe he stated as much in 2007), why so many grinders et al. I know you're a glass 1/2 full guy w/Eaves, I used to be as well. changed my mind in 2008. regardless as to whether Eaves was forced by early departures into recruiting avg. players (which I'd argue is all his fault since Hakstol manages this just fine amongst others) I stand by the fact he's an ultimate control freak and while he can land a good forward now and then we'll never see a high flying team w/him at the helm. He just won't tolerate what comes with players like a Heater, Rau et al which is occasional defensive zone lapses or weak coverage with the upside being what we all know and have witnessed from said players
                        That's just not true. Davies, Turris, Gagner, Zulinick, Besse hell even Brendan Smith/Gardiner/Schultz even though they are d-men were offense first, and very weak in their own end to start. To say that Eaves is recruiting bad players because he can control them is the craziest thing I've heard in a while. If he was such an ultimate control freak he wouldn't recruit players that are going to be draft picks alone, let alone first/second/third round guys which he's had a million of since he's been at UW. He'd recruit like Mankato with one draft pick on a good year.

                        Comment


                        • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

                          It is starting to become apparent that the frustration over results in the program are starting to wharp some perceptions...both here in cyber messageboard world and in the Kohl Center by virtue of an overabundance of empty seats. Things need to change perceptions fairly quickly.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chuck Schwartz View Post
                            That's just not true. Davies, Turris, Gagner, Zulinick, Besse hell even Brendan Smith/Gardiner/Schultz even though they are d-men were offense first, and very weak in their own end to start. To say that Eaves is recruiting bad players because he can control them is the craziest thing I've heard in a while. If he was such an ultimate control freak he wouldn't recruit players that are going to be draft picks alone, let alone first/second/third round guys which he's had a million of since he's been at UW. He'd recruit like Mankato with one draft pick on a good year.
                            Mankato currently has two draft picks on their roster. A second and a third rounder. So, must be a really good year then.

                            Who cares about how many draft picks you have. The same Mankato team and their two draft picks just swept you and your eight draft picks at home.

                            I see the point you're trying to make, but I think you're missing the big picture. Yes, Eaves probably wouldn't be recruiting guys that are likely to draft high if he wanted to "control" his players. But should he really be recruiting so many guys that are likely to get drafted high in the first place?

                            This isn't the 70's, 80's, or even 90's. Post 2005 those guys aren't hanging around as long and the teams with less high draft picks and older rosters seem to be doing better.

                            Being an "NHL Pipeline" is a nice consolation prize, but I'd rather produce less NHL talent and win more NCAA games.

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                            • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

                              Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
                              Being an "NHL Pipeline" is a nice consolation prize, but I'd rather produce less NHL talent and win more NCAA games.
                              Winner winner chicken dinner.

                              The perception I get of Eaves is he's like that teacher you hated while you were in high school, (who pushed you constantly and was hard on you), but once you were in college or working, when you look back you see that that teacher was the best you had.
                              Wisconsin Hockey: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 WE WANT MORE!
                              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Come to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod
                              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              Originally Posted by Wisko McBadgerton:
                              "Baggot says Hughes and Rockwood are centering the top two lines...
                              Timothy A --> Great hockey mind... Or Greatest hockey mind?!?"

                              Comment


                              • Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

                                Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
                                Mankato currently has two draft picks on their roster. A second and a third rounder. So, must be a really good year then.

                                Who cares about how many draft picks you have. The same Mankato team and their two draft picks just swept you and your eight draft picks at home.

                                I see the point you're trying to make, but I think you're missing the big picture. Yes, Eaves probably wouldn't be recruiting guys that are likely to draft high if he wanted to "control" his players. But should he really be recruiting so many guys that are likely to get drafted high in the first place?

                                This isn't the 70's, 80's, or even 90's. Post 2005 those guys aren't hanging around as long and the teams with less high draft picks and older rosters seem to be doing better.

                                Being an "NHL Pipeline" is a nice consolation prize, but I'd rather produce less NHL talent and win more NCAA games.
                                That's another topic entirely from what I was talking about, but I don't disagree with your point that Eaves goal first and foremost is to put together a lineup that produces wins at this level. But as John Calipari said, one of the best days in Kentucky basketball was when he had 5 guys go in the first round. Kids want to play for coaches that put players in the NHL, and Eaves track record in that department is second to none. So, I don't think it should be overlooked, but the goal is, and always will be to bring national championships to the University of Wisconsin first. I don't think Eaves has lost sight of that, yet. That said, I do think he's focused on bringing in more four year players.

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