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  • Fighting Sioux 23
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    If you called this list/thread "The Greatest All-Time Current Programs" I could see you dropping teams, but you have called it "The Greatest Programs of All-Time." Just because a school dropped the sport doesn't mean that the history of that team suddenly disappears. In the case of North Dakota and Denver it would likely take many decades for most of the teams on the list to pass them in all-time greatness (if they ever did pass them). And of course there is also the question of when "All-Time" starts.
    Nobody is saying it disappears. I'm simply not including them in this list. Because you apparently like semantics, "dropped" probably isn't the best word to describe what happens to those programs. I'll go with "unpublished." Although, perhaps I should have a piece in the formula for dropping your program. That's about the worst thing that can possibly happen, so maybe just take the team's points and multiply by zero. Voila...a lot of programs tied for last with zero points.

    As for when "All-Time" starts, I've explained it before, and I think it is pretty clear. The formula includes every non-exhibition game (as the game was classified at the time of its playing) and recognized achievement for the published programs, including games going back to the late 19th Century. In other words..."All-Time."

    Originally posted by Sean Pickett
    I understand not having records for every school that has had a varsity program is problematic for including them in the current list, but that should not prevent programs that you do have complete records for being on the list, even if they are now defunct. Also, there is a lot of information available for programs that have been dropped, especially for those that started playing after 1952 and most likely they could be added to your list with enough effort.

    Sean
    It sounds like you are questioning my efforts here. I'll let my work speak for itself, but I certainly tried and was unable to piece together complete records for most of the defunct programs. If you have complete records for defunct programs (outside of Iona, Fairfield, and Wayne State), please send them my way. I need every game the school played (preferably including dates, but at least the season), the score, and significant achievements (e.g. conference regular season and tournament championships, all-conference selections). Thanks!

    Originally posted by willythekid View Post
    Lots of armchair quarterbacks on here ready to tell FS23 how it should be done... it must be nice to have all that help.
    Well, I've been posting this list here for just about six years, so I've had a lot of "help." FWIW, that's one of the great things about message boards is that everyone gets to express their ideas.

    Leave a comment:


  • willythekid
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Lots of armchair quarterbacks on here ready to tell FS23 how it should be done... it must be nice to have all that help.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sean Pickett
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
    This is correct. In LordofBrewtown's example, North Dakota and Denver would be dropped from the formula and no longer ranked. Of course, if North Dakota and Denver drop hockey, my guess is there wouldn't be maybe more than 3-4 programs left (if that).
    If you called this list/thread "The Greatest All-Time Current Programs" I could see you dropping teams, but you have called it "The Greatest Programs of All-Time." Just because a school dropped the sport doesn't mean that the history of that team suddenly disappears. In the case of North Dakota and Denver it would likely take many decades for most of the teams on the list to pass them in all-time greatness (if they ever did pass them). And of course there is also the question of when "All-Time" starts.

    I understand not having records for every school that has had a varsity program is problematic for including them in the current list, but that should not prevent programs that you do have complete records for being on the list, even if they are now defunct. Also, there is a lot of information available for programs that have been dropped, especially for those that started playing after 1952 and most likely they could be added to your list with enough effort.

    Sean

    Leave a comment:


  • Fighting Sioux 23
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by Ralph Baer View Post
    Either you are like me and have set up USCHO to put the new posts on top or you are predicting the future.


    Yes, I have it set up to put the new posts on top.

    Leave a comment:


  • Siouxfaninseattle
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    #29 – FERRIS STATE BULLDOGS

    Points: 36.12688 Points
    Points earned in 2015-2016 3.2099 Points
    Points earned in past five seasons: 27.74738 Points
    Last Season Ranking: #28


    The Bulldogs had a very successful ’15-’16 season, going 20-15-6, winning the WCHA playoffs and a regional game before falling one game short of the Frozen Four. Their drop in the rankings is due to another soon to be named program that had a huge rise after last season.

    Leave a comment:


  • Siouxfaninseattle
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    #30 – COLGATE RAIDERS

    Points: 32.28072 Points
    Points earned in 2015-2016 0.0028 Points
    Points earned in past five seasons: 4.31532 Points
    Last Season Ranking: #29


    The ’15-’16 season was a disappointing one for the Raiders. They finished the year 11-23-2 after coming off two consecutive years of 20+ wins and a trip to the national tournament. There is a great deal of excitement for the upcoming season – Colgate will start play in the soon-to-be completed Class of 1965 Arena, a state-of-the-art 2100 seat facility.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ralph Baer
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
    See the responses below:
    Either you are like me and have set up USCHO to put the new posts on top or you are predicting the future.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fighting Sioux 23
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by LordofBrewtown View Post
    I guess I haven't been following close enough - how is it possible to lose points? That part of the forumula bothers me - I feel as long as you're playing you should at least be holding steady.

    So, if NoDak or Denver would decide to drop the sport tomorrow - how far would they drop in the formula next year (or would they be dropped completely since no longer active)?
    See the responses below:

    Originally posted by giwan View Post
    Notice there are only active programs on the list, if a program stops to exist it is dropped.
    This is correct. In LordofBrewtown's example, North Dakota and Denver would be dropped from the formula and no longer ranked. Of course, if North Dakota and Denver drop hockey, my guess is there wouldn't be maybe more than 3-4 programs left (if that).

    Originally posted by komey1 View Post
    A bad season will net you negative points.
    I would only add that the formula does not permit a team to drop below zero total points. So, if a team had 0 points, and went 0-34-0, they would likely stay at 0 points.

    Leave a comment:


  • komey1
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by giwan View Post
    Notice there are only active programs on the list, if a program stops to exist it is dropped.

    I believe you can lose points if you play and lose to a team lower on the list.
    A bad season will net you negative points.

    Leave a comment:


  • giwan
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by LordofBrewtown View Post
    I guess I haven't been following close enough - how is it possible to lose points? That part of the forumula bothers me - I feel as long as you're playing you should at least be holding steady. So, if NoDak or Denver would decide to drop the sport tomorrow - how far would they drop in the formula next year (or would they be dropped completely since no longer active)?
    Notice there are only active programs on the list, if a program stops to exist it is dropped.

    I believe you can lose points if you play and lose to a team lower on the list.

    Leave a comment:


  • darker98
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by LordofBrewtown View Post
    I guess I haven't been following close enough - how is it possible to lose points? That part of the forumula bothers me - I feel as long as you're playing you should at least be holding steady.

    So, if NoDak or Denver would decide to drop the sport tomorrow - how far would they drop in the formula next year (or would they be dropped completely since no longer active)?
    It would appear dropped off completely.

    Leave a comment:


  • LordofBrewtown
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by Siouxfaninseattle View Post
    #33– BROWN BEARS

    Points: 22.68181 Points
    Points earned in 2015-2016: -0.0017 Points
    Points earned in past five seasons: 4.18201 Points
    Last Season Ranking: #33

    I guess I haven't been following close enough - how is it possible to lose points? That part of the forumula bothers me - I feel as long as you're playing you should at least be holding steady.

    So, if NoDak or Denver would decide to drop the sport tomorrow - how far would they drop in the formula next year (or would they be dropped completely since no longer active)?

    Leave a comment:


  • komey1
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by LtPowers View Post
    Winning the AHA tournament and beating #1 overall seed Mankato in 2015 still only got us 1.87 points. It's a huge uphill battle; there's a ton of points awarded for beating good teams in the regular season.


    Powers &8^]
    Neither team won 20 games, which I think is also part of the formula. RIT will have a chance to pick up wins over former champs this year with all but UConn being former champ as a non-conference game. I think this year's edition will have a chance for 20 wins and getting a win or two in that category.

    Leave a comment:


  • Snively65
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by gfmorris View Post
    It would be more work, but it would be interesting to see what long-term trends you've seen in the different strata and be able to intuit how good of a run that you'd have to go up 5 spots, etc. But I don't know off-hand how I'd model that.

    GFM
    I am thinking that Quinnipiac will move up three spots (31st to 28th) after their NC game this past April.

    Omaha moved up six places with their FF appearance the year before (45th to 39th), and Minnesota State moved up six places over the past two years (46th to 40th). So, it is no doubt easier to move up multiple places from the bottom third of the list, although BU and PC jumped three places in 2015 (7th to 4th, and 24th to 21st, respectively).

    Leave a comment:


  • gfmorris
    replied
    Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1-#59

    Originally posted by LtPowers View Post
    Yes, and I think that's misleading. On the logarithmic plot, it appears that the distance between, say, 8 and 9 is similar to the distance between 51 and 52. On a percentage basis, that's true, but points are awarded on a set scale, not a sliding scale. So #52 would have to do a lot less than #9 would to move up a rank. The only reason they appear similar on the log plot is because #52 hasn't done much in the past while #9 has.
    It would be more work, but it would be interesting to see what long-term trends you've seen in the different strata and be able to intuit how good of a run that you'd have to go up 5 spots, etc. But I don't know off-hand how I'd model that.

    GFM

    Leave a comment:

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