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  • Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
    Kind of agree. As a hockey fan growing up here it's inspiring and imho it's a very unique and cool accomplishment, but I didn't feel any less proud in '02 and '03 then in the 70's. Moreso I don't find it a reason to puff my chest, overplay its importance nor try to disparage the dozen or so other programs that have had great success all their own. I think that's where these JDUBB loses everyone. Celebrate, don't denigrate or something like that.

    Gurt, all good my friend.
    I agree with everything you said, but after reading thru the last few pages of this thread I think it's fair to point out that he did go out of his way to give equal credit for championships and try not to disparage other programs.

    Personally, I agree with a lot of what he said. Like you, I also think that some of the things the Gophers have been able to accomplish are special. And what it did for American hockey is great. I think most college hockey fans recognize that.

    What JDUBBS seems incapable of understanding is that we don't need to be reminded of those accomplishments over and over and over and over and over and over. It gets really old. And the fact that he hasn't learned that lesson makes me think he never will.

    There's a fine line between arrogance and pride and he crosses that line far too often.
    Last edited by mnstate0fhockey; 03-02-2013, 10:19 AM.
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    • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

      Originally posted by HumRsky View Post
      Everyone would earn an extra point except Minnesota, but with their extra point for the tradition bonus, the rankings would be exactly the same.
      Not Michigan, but we're so far ahead we don't need that stinkin' point...
      Originally posted by alfablue
      Still bitter, eh? Gotta get over it someday. He left, and UMICH was right.
      Originally posted by Nick Papagiorgio
      I think Notre Dame should wear sparkly silver helmets to match all their runner-up trophies.

      Comment


      • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

        You continue to not answer my questions. The reason is because they are coaches' philosophies, not the University's philosophy. Woog had an All-Minnesota policy. Lucia changed that. If it was the University's philosophy, my guess is that Lucia would have been fired. Universities don't like people coming in and trying to change their philosophies. If a new coach came in and recruited solely Canadians, and they won 3 titles in 4 years, they wouldn't be fired either. Or, why did Minnesota go after Dean Blais around the turn of the century? He was known for recruiting kids from all over. If Blais had decided to take the job, it would have conflicted with this mythological philosophy that you think Minnesota has. In sum, it's a coach's recruiting philosophy, not a University philosophy.


        Mile High Hockey ---

        You are so wrong. It is the "general" philosophy of UMn that if a coach can recruit mostly from the state of MN & in so doing, become successful, the university is MORE pleased than if the coach had recruited mostly from out of state & been equally successful.

        I wouldn't even doubt it if "in general", the University holds its coaches to a lower standard when they see that the coach is making an effort to give Minnesota kids opportunities to play at the next level. Evidence of this "general" policy can be seen in every single sport at UMn as far as I can tell. W's Soccer, W's hockey, Ms & Ws CC, VB, Ms & Ws BB, Wr, fb, softball, baseball, Ms & Ws Golf, etc..

        Is it tolerated when a coach starts to recruit outside of the state of MN?! Yes, sure it is, BUT, it is expected of that coach to then show a measureable amount of improvement on the field or court because of this outside talent being brought in.

        Examples of this are the Australians & English golfers, the Brazilian VB player, the Finnish women's hockey player, the Austrian mens hockey player. It's also deemed quite acceptable to bring in recruits from Wisconsin, Iowa and the Dakotas, too.


        But the one thing ALL of those out-state and foreign recruits had in common? They were beyond good, they were extraordinary athletes AND, they were ALWAYS in the minority on the roster. There were always more Minnesotans on every one of those teams than players from outside of MN combined.


        The other thing about coaches & how they recruit at UMn. They do it because its the best thing for the state and program at the same time. Bringing in the BEST players from the Dakotas & Wisc to play hockey for us, keeps those players from playing for our conf opponents, and makes us good enough that other MN superstars grow up wanting nothing more than to be Gophers when they grow up.

        Bringing in a few select superstar wrestlers from Iowa especially and also other parts of the country, makes UMn one of the best programs in the country, for the young wrestlers growing up in MN to strive to want to be a part of. And wrestling in the state of MN thrives, more than in most other states, in part because of the "general" philosophy of UMn & ALL of its coaches.


        You make it sound like its only the coaches philosophy?! Well, in part that is true, but then its obviously the Universities policy to ONLY hire coaches who have similar philosophies to that of Mariucci.


        You claim that if some coach came in and starting recruiting only Canadians, that they wouldn't get fired!?!

        You are wrong!!!! They'd get fired first chance the school found to do so.

        Minnesotans as a people, the whole state, "in general", likes seeing its local boys and gals stay home. Their families like their children to stay close to home. Their friends like it. Their fans like it. The fans of ALL Gopher sports teams like it and PREFER it, as long as it doesn't handicap the team too much.

        And the more money involved in the sport, like with cbb and cfb, the more lax the University and the public and fans are when it comes to keeping to that "general" policy. More so with fb, because its gotten virtually impossible to field a competitive team with only MN players. The same is not so true with basketball, and never has been true with hockey.

        Which leads me to answer your 2nd question.







        On the flip side, my second question (which you never even addressed) addressed the issue that if you are going to praise a University for doing well under a coach's vision, and give that University extra credit, then you should also punish that University and deduct extra points when they do not meet standards.


        Your idea that if you are going to praise a University for doing well under a coach's vision, and give that University extra credit, then you should also punish that University and deduct extra points when they do not meet standards is actually fine, I suppose?! And I am sure I know exactly what you are trying to claim, that Woog followed that philosophy and failed, so Lucia had to change the policy and then he succeeded, and that's WRONG, it is not accurate, its bullsh1t.


        Woog did not fail. In many ways Woog was very successful. He took the Gophers to 4 straight FFs. And people simply were spoiled by the success of Broten, and felt finishing 2nd wasn't good enough. He missed the FF for 4 years straight before returning in back to back seasons, only to drop off again. And instead of trying to figure out what the complex issues might have been that all seemed to conspire against Woog to prevent his teams from winning a Natl Title, they lazily pointed at his policy of only recruiting Minnesotans as the problem. So Lucia brought in one North Dakotan, and an Austrian, and one more from out of state I think, that all were big factors in helping his win those 2 Back to Back Natl Titles.

        Those 2 titles bought him a lot of grace from Gopher fans when HIS new philosophy, which was STILL to recruit primarily Minnesotans, backfired and he recruited SO INCREDIBLY WELL, that we suffered what the bluebloods in cbb suffer from, players coming in and doing the one and done thing, before they really even contribute in a significant way. I think that some of those guys left just a little too early. Each of them probably could have be well served to play one more year, but then again, most of them are doing well and making millions now in the NHL. But had he come up short those 2 seasons, and they were close games, he would have felt a lot more heat during those years the Gophers slumped.


        See, the issue with Woog was complicated. There were plenty of good enough Minnesota boys that could have come to Minnesota who didn't for whatever reason, and had those players come, we probably would have had just as good a team, made up completely of Minnesotans. But when local boys choose to go out east, or up to UND or to UMD for whatever reason, maybe to get away from the parents or for an adventure or who knows, maybe their high school coach got snubbed by the Gophers and directs all his players away from Minnesota? But all Lucia did basically, was bring in a few out-staters to make up for the top notch in staters that went elsewhere. Once he got a couple of those outsiders to combine with a core of great upperclassmen players that WOOG had recruited & won those 2 titles, then he didn't have a problem getting all the top MN players wanting to come here, but you can only take so many, and if you go after these 3 first, these other 2 feel miffed and go somewhere else out of spite maybe, and maybe one of those end up being better than one of the 3 you went after first? And as Lucia found out, when you become so popular that you get the absolute best wanting to come here, and then they leave after just 1 or 2 ssns before even helping you to win a Natl Title first, then you are left scrambling to find replacements & it throws everything off.

        Now we've recovered, we've got some young good guys who weren't quite ready to bail after last year, and hopefully they will get us a title this year before they bolt, and more than we'd like just might? If they don't leave, we'll be UBER good next year. But eventually these great players will leave, and where will Lucia look first to replace the players leaving?

        He'll look for the best local talent, first. He'll get the best locals to fill our needs, and then look elsewhere if there is more space available, except of course when that superstar is found then you hope to get them and surround them with the best local talent.


        Another thing about Woog, he was having to deal with in-state schools moving up to Div 1 and recruiting against him as well, which wasn't much of an issue for Mariucci or Broten. In fact, Broten was one of the people who really helped boost SCSU up to Div 1.




        So go ahead and TRY to deduct points or punish UMn for its failures, but there are none really. Lucia's only made it to 4 FFs in his 12 years of coaching at UMn. Woog made it to 4 FFs in a row & had gotten UMn to its 6th FF in just his 10th or 11th year or something like that? So if Lucia gets UMn to the FF this year, he'll still be behind Woog in that dept, but yes, of course, Lucia's got those 2 Titles. Basically both coaches started out with a bang, and kind of had a hard time maintaining their momentum. Woog suffered also from players leaving for the NHL which was becoming more & more of an issue throughout his time at UMn.

        Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Woog was super incredible the best ever, he had flaws and he made some mistakes that probably cost him a few more FFs and some Titles. Lucia has some flaws as well and has made some mistakes, too.



        My guess is that since your school was one of the WORST when it came to recruiting overaged Canadians, that you have THAT as your motivation for trying to prove JDUBBS comments and ideas to be wrong. If he is right, then what does that say about your school? Eh?!

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        • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

          Looks like we've found jdubbs new username. Or maybe this is his mom on the computer upstairs.
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          • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

            I dunno - does JDUBBS negrep? 'Cause this new clown does.
            If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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            • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

              Could we get a more detailed explanation of how political boundaries (state lines) determine hockey talent and authenticate superior hockey programs? For example, suppose someone moves to Minnesota from another state or even another country BEFORE he is old enough to play or coach college hockey. Does his eligibility for the exalted status of "Minnesota hockey player" (or coach) depend upon his age at the time of the move, or upon the state or country he moved from? Suppose that player (coach) was conceived in a state or country other than Minnesota - even Wisconsin. Would that disqualify him from membership in the elite, exclusive, most important hockey program/ hockey state? Is anyone qualified and empowered to make these critical determinations based upon imaginary lines drawn by partisan politicians?

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              • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                Looks like we've found jdubbs new username. Or maybe this is his mom on the computer upstairs.

                Or maybe neither. Just because I agree with JDUBBS on this one issue doesn't mean I have to be him. MOST Gopher fans agree with JDUBBS, but they just try to distance themselves from him because of what the majority of non-Gopher fans think of him. He rubs them all the wrong way and so they've basically chosen not to like him as well. In fact many Gopher fans are very against him, but its NOT because they disagree with what he says, its because they don't like how or why or when or how often he says what he says.


                But I can assure you I am not JDUBBS, or his mother, or his friend in real life or related to him in any way. Although I don't know for sure what every single one of my relatives does with their free time, so who knows?! But as far as I know none of my relatives are rabid gopher fans.


                I've been at this forum in the past, but I come in for one winter, then take 5-6 off, then come in for another full winter, then take another 5-6 years off, so I am not up to speed with anything that has gone on between JDUBBS and everyone else in the distant past.

                But from what I see in the present, he tries to be respectful of other programs and posters, and people show him nothing but disrespect, and yet he does not retaliate in a childish manner, instead he just keeps sticking to his ideas and theories and opinions and it drives everyone crazy and I personally think its hilarious how far people go to try to use character assassination to kill off a messanger whose message they don't like.

                Maybe he deserves all the crap he gets from things he's done or said in the past? I don't know, I just came back in here earlier this season and have only recently started to spend more time in here, so all I see is his most recent posts here. And I've seen posts of his at another site where everyone is a Gopher fan, and guess what, he seems to get along there with everyone just fine, from what I can tell.

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                • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                  I dunno - does JDUBBS negrep? 'Cause this new clown does.

                  Why am I a clown? Serious? So many hateful people out in the world. I am a good and righteous person, and because I have an opinion you don't like, you insult me?

                  What does that say about your character?

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                  • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                    Originally posted by Back2BackU-MnPride2002 View Post
                    Why am I a clown? Serious? So many hateful people out in the world. I am a good and righteous person, and because I have an opinion you don't like, you insult me?

                    What does that say about your character?
                    You don't go around neg repping people. That will get you labeled as a clown. We all get jdubbs point. Minnesota does deserve credit for helping build local talent and building around homegrown players but that is no way to truly judge which program has had more success. These discussions happen in a vacuum and the birth place of players shouldn't come into play for this discussion. I have no problem with Minnesota's choice to build with Minnesota kids. I love watching MNHS hockey and am extremely glad that the quality is there and I know its there because Minnesota recruits Minnesota and also because Minnesota helps programs like BSU, UMD, SCSU and MSUM. The fact that Minnesota can support 5 DI teams is amazing and has alot to do with Mariucci and Herb Brooks. All the rest of us are trying to say is that qualitatively it doesn't matter and isn't germane to NCAA Program rankings.

                    PS a righteous person doesn't go around neg repping people saying, "Some ppl need the truth beaten into their brains"
                    Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

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                    • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                      Could we get a more detailed explanation of how political boundaries (state lines) determine hockey talent and authenticate superior hockey programs? For example, suppose someone moves to Minnesota from another state or even another country BEFORE he is old enough to play or coach college hockey. Does his eligibility for the exalted status of "Minnesota hockey player" (or coach) depend upon his age at the time of the move, or upon the state or country he moved from? Suppose that player (coach) was conceived in a state or country other than Minnesota - even Wisconsin. Would that disqualify him from membership in the elite, exclusive, most important hockey program/ hockey state? Is anyone qualified and empowered to make these critical determinations based upon imaginary lines drawn by partisan politicians?


                      LOL, wow dude, you really took offense to my stating my opinions, eh?


                      Where are you from? I'm sure there is something about where you are from that the locals are proud of. Ever see a sign driving into a town where the sign says, "blankville - home of famous person X" lol

                      Nothing wrong with people being proud of their local high school and that school's success. Nothing wrong with someone being proud of their local university and its success in whatever. Nothing wrong with a state being proud of something either.

                      Minnesota SUCKS when it comes to producing future football superstars. Why is that? There are lots of reasons. And those reasons CAN be defined and analyzed and opined about.

                      Minnesota KICKS *** when it comes to producing future hockey superstars. Why is that? There are lots of reasons. And those reasons CAN be defined and analyzed and opined about.


                      Another state could follow Minnesota's lead and do just what we've done, with hockey or another sport. I'm not trying to stop them, and I'd celebrate their accomplishments when they accomplish them.


                      PSU is linebacker U, isn't it? Pennsylvanians are VERY proud of their production of superstar football talent over the years. Do I fault them for this pride? No, I recognize what Pennsylvania does and as a big football fan, I'm jealous. Minnesota USED to produce the best football players, but then WWII rolled around and the world changed, and the growth of hockey in Minnesota has taken away athletes that otherwise might have excelled in other sports.



                      All of what I've said makes sense and can basically be shown to be accurate by looking at the facts, but because what I post isn't praising YOU or YOUR school or YOUR state, you take offense?! WOW.


                      Seriously, tell me where you are from and I probably can pimp your state or school about something. I'm not just a Gopher homer. I like college sports as a whole and sports in general. But you don't want to read that or acknowledge that, you'd much rather have someone to be the enemy, the bad guy, while JDUBBS is suspended. You are hilarious man.



                      but otherwise, the AGE of a person doesn't matter as much as what the person experiences before coming to Minnesota and what they experience after coming to Minnesota. Minnesota takes it's hockey seriously, and someone moving here from out of state, given enough time and exposure to what goes on in Minnesota regarding hockey, can benefit from it. But there are people who are successful at hockey from all over the country and the world. Depends on how seriously they take the sport as a person.

                      Just being from Minnesota doesn't guarantee a person ANYTHING if they don't take advantage of what Minnesota has to offer them as a potential hockey player. Some black dude from Alabama, if he chooses to be the next superstar hockey player, could excel in the sport beyond many Minnesotans if he and his family take the sport seriously and do what is needed for him to develop his talents. Then he could go to Alabama-Huntsville and then the NHL and NEVER come near Minnesota, except the beat the crap out of WCHA teams and the Wild.


                      What I'm saying makes sense, but you don't want to discuss it, you just want to bash me, I'm guessing.

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                      • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                        PS a righteous person doesn't go around neg repping people saying, "Some ppl need the truth beaten into their brains"

                        The truth shall set you free. I believe what I said was true, some people are very resistant to the truth. When I was in the army and had people trying to convince me of something important that would change my life forever, it took them basically, beating that truth into my brain for it to take hold. There were 2 guys working on my brain, trying to convince of something. The one guy was all nice about it, the other guy got in my face about it, and guess what, the nice guy was easy to ignore, but the guy who got in my face, ****ed me off so bad. And then I finally figured out why he ****ed me off, it was because he was right and I wouldn't have recognized that fact had he ***** footed around like the other guy.

                        So maybe my past has made me a little rough around the edges, so that I'll say something like" some ppl need the truth beaten into their brains". But its basically a true statement and I stand by that statement.




                        As for neg repping you, I'm sorry, is that something really serious?! I tried repping someone I had already repped apparently and was "encouraged" to spread around my repping. And I saw some poster say the same thing, that he had to spread some rep. So honestly, I only did it when I felt it was appropriate.

                        But I am a fairly righteous man, and stand by all that I've ever posted and said. Even when what I posted or said was something sinful. Because I am human and I'll admit to making mistakes, and will make an effort to apologize when I do. If my neg repping you was more serious of the thing that I was led to believe it would be, then I apologize.

                        But I have a right to my opinion, and if I back up my opinion with facts, then instead of calling me a clown, why not refute my opinions with facts?

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                        • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                          Originally posted by Back2BackU-MnPride2002 View Post
                          The truth shall set you free. I believe what I said was true, some people are very resistant to the truth.
                          Well, you neg repped me for stating something that is absolutely true: that UMinn's recruiting policy doesn't matter to me. You seem to be very resistant to THAT truth. I guess some truths are more equal than others, eh?
                          If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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                          • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                            Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
                            You don't go around neg repping people. That will get you labeled as a clown. We all get jdubbs point. Minnesota does deserve credit for helping build local talent and building around homegrown players but that is no way to truly judge which program has had more success. These discussions happen in a vacuum and the birth place of players shouldn't come into play for this discussion. I have no problem with Minnesota's choice to build with Minnesota kids. I love watching MNHS hockey and am extremely glad that the quality is there and I know its there because Minnesota recruits Minnesota and also because Minnesota helps programs like BSU, UMD, SCSU and MSUM. The fact that Minnesota can support 5 DI teams is amazing and has alot to do with Mariucci and Herb Brooks. All the rest of us are trying to say is that qualitatively it doesn't matter and isn't germane to NCAA Program rankings.

                            PS a righteous person doesn't go around neg repping people saying, "Some ppl need the truth beaten into their brains"
                            "Homegrown" indisputably DOES introduce "birth place" into this discussion - unless you answer questions about immigrants and conception location. In fact this whole shebang revolves around birthplace and invisible lines drawn by partisan politicians.

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                            • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                              I figured it out! JDubbs is a Mogwai. He took a shower and now we have Back2BackU-MnPride2002. Sure they are both all cute and fuzzy now but everyone needs to stop responding to them, especially after midnight!, or they'll turn into some green reptile type thingy.
                              Last edited by Dirty; 03-13-2013, 11:47 AM.
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                              • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                                Originally posted by Osorojo View Post
                                "Homegrown" indisputably DOES introduce "birth place" into this discussion - unless you answer questions about immigrants and conception location. In fact this whole shebang revolves around birthplace and invisible lines drawn by partisan politicians.
                                If they are allowed to play NCAA, where the player is from should have no effect on how we rank programs.
                                Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

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