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NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

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  • Originally posted by Mile High Hockey View Post
    If you would answer my questions please.

    Also, I seem to remember one very non-American player on Minnesota's 2002-2003 team that wasn't Canadian.
    I did answer your question. Minnesota hasn't really deviated from Mariucci's philosophy of primarily recruiting Americans and building hockey in-state. Case in point, MN continuing to play other in-state schools post-realignment.

    And yeah, sorry, forgot to include Vanek. Still, all but two players were American, and all but three Minnesotan.

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    • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

      Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
      And yeah, sorry, forgot to include Vanek.

      I can see how he'd slip your mind.

      Comment


      • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

        Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
        Mark wasn't even the best player on that team. Brooks regarded Pavelich as the best player on that team.
        Here's a well known and direct Herb Brooks quote: "Mark Johnson is one of the finest young men I've ever coached. We wouldn't have won the gold medal if he wasn't on that team."

        Although to be fair, trusting things Brooks said publicly about anything or anyone is always suspect as he rarely did so without some ulterior motive. Regardless, whether sincere or not, it is certainly accurate.
        Originally posted by WiscTJK
        I'm with Wisko and Tim.
        Originally posted by Timothy A
        Other than Wisko McBadgerton and Badger Bob, who is universally loved by all?

        Comment


        • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

          Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
          Not sure why it's so hard to give the University of Minnesota the credit they are due. I have openly admitted above that Minnesota has fallen short of a number of programs when it comes to on ice achievements. In that regard I think FS23's rankings are pretty good and I don't think I could do any better.

          But if the conversation is turned to greatest programs in all aspects, or maybe most important programs would be a better description, I don't know, i think factors such as these should be included as well.

          Let me shift the focus away from Minnesota for a second. Are their any factors/achievements of this type for other programs that set them a part or make them important? I would genuinely love to hear them.
          Perhaps it truly is two different questions that everyone is getting hung up on. It would certainly be hard to argue that Minnesota isn't the most important program, or at the very least one of the 2 or 3 most important programs in college hockey history. I would not disagree with you there.

          As for other programs, I grew up on a healthy pro-Minnesota diet, so I don't really know of other similar type programs, but I can think of a few: 1) North Dakota growing to prominence from such a small location from such a small state, 2) Boston College's use of primarily Americans from all over the country, 3) Any of the Ivy League schools that have had success while still maintaining absolute top-notch academic standards (this would also apply to other schools not in the Ivy League). Certainly there are more, and this is part of the reason why college hockey is so great, is because so many schools are so unique in their histories and traditions and what makes them great.

          That being said, I'd still like an answer to my questions that I asked you earlier.

          Comment


          • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

            Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
            I did answer your question. Minnesota hasn't really deviated from Mariucci's philosophy of primarily recruiting Americans and building hockey in-state. Case in point, MN continuing to play other in-state schools post-realignment.
            I'll ask my questions again, just slightly differently, so you get my point:

            1) If it was Minnesota's philosophy, then why did the All-Minnesota Roster change when a new coach came in?

            and

            2) Should Minnesota then be appropriately deducted points for failing under this system, especially in the final years of the Woog era?

            Comment


            • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

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              • Originally posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
                Here's a well known and direct Herb Brooks quote: "Mark Johnson is one of the finest young men I've ever coached. We wouldn't have won the gold medal if he wasn't on that team."

                Although to be fair, trusting things Brooks said publicly about anything or anyone is always suspect as he rarely did so without some ulterior motive. Regardless, whether sincere or not, it is certainly accurate.
                Not denying that Herb Brooks thought Mark Johnson was a great player, or that he was a crucial piece to that team. But he didn't think he was the best player on that 1980 team. I have read in numerous books by friends and confidants of Brooks that it was Mark Pavelich.

                "Once in a while he'd [Pavelich] be down there and say he forgot his skates, and ask if any of us had any skates he could borrow. Then he'd borrow a stick. It might be left-handed, and he shot right; it didn't matter. Pav could go out there with somebody else's skates on that were the wrong size, and using a left-handed stick, and he'd still be the best player out there."
                Last edited by JDUBBS1280; 03-01-2013, 11:33 AM.

                Comment


                • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                  I apologize for being sucked into this conversation, but JDUBBS you need to give it a rest!

                  Yes, the history of Minnesota hockey (University and otherwise) is interesting and their contributions to hockey are considerable. But, your constant pontificating and defense of Minnesota hockey is simply getting old and exhausting.

                  In this day and age you are projecting a very provincial and restricting picture of the face of college hockey, hockey in general, and sports overall. Look at all the other college hockey programs and you will see the face of college hockey: the kids come from many diverse places across the country and the globe. Minnesota, in this day and age, is an anomaly; it is no longer the standard, the norm, or what fans expect to see on a college hockey roster. It's a good thing that Minnesota has players from Finland, Colorado, and Missouri--it allows for a less narrow-minded, parochial, and insular vision of team dynamics and the shape of the way things are in these times. Look how diverse the NHL has become. We don't care whether there are exclusively Canadians or Americans on those teams, because we know good players come from many different places. Most of us in this forum don't care where the players on our college teams come from; we simply want to see good, competitive talent. I suspect many in this forum could care less whether Minnesota's players are all Minnesotans or Americans or from South Australia for that matter.

                  As to whether the contributions of Minnesota hockey in 1974 or any other year were the greatest to USA hockey, most of us in this forum probably think that's just fine for Minnesota fans to think that; but, of course, we all have our own allegiances and we look to the contributions that our programs, big, medium, and small have made down through the years, and think: Those are pretty good contributions as well! We simply aren't out proselytizing and trying to convert others into thinking that we are the end all--we simply hope that our teams continue to perform well against the big, medium, and small programs with the talent our schools are able to send out on the ice each season.

                  Give the beating of the Minnesota drum a rest.
                  NMU Hockey Since 1976 ...there at the beginning.

                  Bill Crawford, LSSU radio announcer, on NMU hockey: "This is their MO right to the tee: get out shot, get out played, keep hangin' in there, just rope-a-dope it in your own zone, get it up the ice, bang it in and win the game."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mile High Hockey View Post
                    I'll ask my questions again, just slightly differently, so you get my point:

                    1) If it was Minnesota's philosophy, then why did the All-Minnesota Roster change when a new coach came in?

                    and

                    2) Should Minnesota then be appropriately deducted points for failing under this system, especially in the final years of the Woog era?
                    Neither Mariucci or Brooks just recruited Americans or just recruited Minnesotans. The overwhelming majority of the players they recruited were American, and specifically Minnesotans. That is still true today.

                    - Mariucci adopted the philosophy of recruiting primarily Americans from primarily in-state.
                    - That philosophy gave more opportunities to local kids to play, which increased local interest in the sport.
                    - The # of MN high school hockey programs grew ten fold.
                    - Minnesota won numerous championships with all American rosters and Minnesotans made at least half of two Gold Medal winning US Olympic hockey rosters.
                    - These achievements promoted the growth of hockey in this country and showed young kids here it was not just a Canadian game. Keep in mind, both college hockey and the NHL were comprised of mostly Canadian players at that time.

                    The Gophers still primarily recruit only Americans and primarily only from within the state. That hasn't changed from the days of Mariucci.

                    Comment


                    • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                      aygwm2 - I made one comment, and was questioned, so I responded, questioned, then responded, asked a question, recieved an answer, etc.

                      This is a message board and this is a discussion. I'm not upset, and unclear as to why you are. If you don't like the discussion, you aren't being forced to read it.

                      And I'm not at all being provincial. I clearly said that Minnesota's choice to use only Americans shouldn't be considered a handicap and other program's choices to use players from a variety of other places should not deminish the accomplishments of those programs. All achievements on the ice should count the same.

                      That said, the growth of hockey in this country has been very important to college hockey and the University of Minnesota has been instrumental in fostering that growth. Not sure why that should be off the table in a discussion about the "greatest programs"?
                      Last edited by JDUBBS1280; 03-01-2013, 11:54 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                        You know, Dubber, reading this thread evokes memories of driving in western parts of North Dakota, Wyoming, and eastern Montana. You go through miles and miles and miles of unchanging landscape. Nothing changes. You look ahead of you and nothing changes. You look behind you and nothing changes. It's the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's not even bad stuff--it just never changes. Pretty soon you start playing silly word games, not to make it all go away (OK, maybe that), but just to tolerate the changelessness of it.

                        Miles upon miles of range land is one thing: a mind is something else.

                        In the words of Doyle Lonnegan in The Sting: You follow?

                        Comment


                        • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                          Originally posted by burd View Post
                          You know, Dubber, reading this thread evokes memories of driving in western parts of North Dakota, Wyoming, and eastern Montana. You go through miles and miles and miles of unchanging landscape. Nothing changes. You look ahead of you and nothing changes. You look behind you and nothing changes. It's the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's not even bad stuff--it just never changes. Pretty soon you start playing silly word games, not to make it all go away (OK, maybe that), but just to tolerate the changelessness of it.

                          Miles upon miles of range land is one thing: a mind is something else.

                          In the words of Doyle Lonnegan in The Sting: You follow?
                          "I will follow you down but not that far. "
                          Slap Shot - 444 might want to consider a restraining order.
                          dggoddard - Minnesota is THE ELITE Program in all of college hockey.
                          wasmania - you have to be the very best to get ice time with the great gophers!

                          Comment


                          • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                            Originally posted by burd View Post
                            It's the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's not even bad stuff--it just never changes. Pretty soon you start playing silly word games, not to make it all go away (OK, maybe that), but just to tolerate the changelessness of it.

                            Miles upon miles of range land is one thing: a mind is something else.

                            In the words of Doyle Lonnegan in The Sting: You follow?
                            This!
                            NMU Hockey Since 1976 ...there at the beginning.

                            Bill Crawford, LSSU radio announcer, on NMU hockey: "This is their MO right to the tee: get out shot, get out played, keep hangin' in there, just rope-a-dope it in your own zone, get it up the ice, bang it in and win the game."

                            Comment


                            • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                              Originally posted by burd View Post

                              In the words of Doyle Lonnegan in The Sting: You follow?

                              That's your second Sting reference in the past week or so.


                              Grew up in Joliet, btw.

                              Comment


                              • Re: NCAA era Program rankings-accomplishments only

                                Originally posted by JDUBBS1280 View Post
                                Neither Mariucci or Brooks just recruited Americans or just recruited Minnesotans. The overwhelming majority of the players they recruited were American, and specifically Minnesotans. That is still true today.

                                - Mariucci adopted the philosophy of recruiting primarily Americans from primarily in-state.
                                - That philosophy gave more opportunities to local kids to play, which increased local interest in the sport.
                                - The # of MN high school hockey programs grew ten fold.
                                - Minnesota won numerous championships with all American rosters and Minnesotans made at least half of two Gold Medal winning US Olympic hockey rosters.
                                - These achievements promoted the growth of hockey in this country and showed young kids here it was not just a Canadian game. Keep in mind, both college hockey and the NHL were comprised of mostly Canadian players at that time.

                                The Gophers still primarily recruit only Americans and primarily only from within the state. That hasn't changed from the days of Mariucci.
                                You continue to not answer my questions. The reason is because they are coaches' philosophies, not the University's philosophy. Woog had an All-Minnesota policy. Lucia changed that. If it was the University's philosophy, my guess is that Lucia would have been fired. Universities don't like people coming in and trying to change their philosophies. If a new coach came in and recruited solely Canadians, and they won 3 titles in 4 years, they wouldn't be fired either. Or, why did Minnesota go after Dean Blais around the turn of the century? He was known for recruiting kids from all over. If Blais had decided to take the job, it would have conflicted with this mythological philosophy that you think Minnesota has. In sum, it's a coach's recruiting philosophy, not a University philosophy.

                                On the flip side, my second question (which you never even addressed) addressed the issue that if you are going to praise a University for doing well under a coach's vision, and give that University extra credit, then you should also punish that University and deduct extra points when they do not meet standards.

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