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Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

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  • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

    Originally posted by kdiff77 View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, Euler (or anyone), but isn't Early Decision a binding contract? If you are accepted to the school, aren't you legally obligated to attend said school unless you can prove some sort of financial shortcoming? That is my understanding of Early Decision, though I admit I am not familiar with the specific language.

    My point is, how are the Roys getting away with this? It should literally be illegal for them to not attend Brown. I actually don't want them on the team any more because they seem like brats (well, Kevin does, anyway), but if my comprehension of the rules is accurate, they shouldn't have even been able to think about attending a different school, since they were Early Decision.
    ]

    Guys, how about some perspective. This is a teenager we are talking about. Not some middle-aged 40 year old. Teenagers make short-sighted decisions, they change their minds, they do all sorts of things they would never do once they undergo the life experiences and the subsequent learnings that come with time and age.

    This absolutely stinks for Brown. And if this happened to the school I follow, I'd be PO'd as well. But let's flip the switch here for a second. If Roy was your kid, and he had a change of heart about the next 4 years of his life, would your answer be "Tough break kid?"

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    • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

      Originally posted by bothman View Post
      ]

      Guys, how about some perspective. This is a teenager we are talking about. Not some middle-aged 40 year old. Teenagers make short-sighted decisions, they change their minds, they do all sorts of things they would never do once they undergo the life experiences and the subsequent learnings that come with time and age.

      This absolutely stinks for Brown. And if this happened to the school I follow, I'd be PO'd as well. But let's flip the switch here for a second. If Roy was your kid, and he had a change of heart about the next 4 years of his life, would your answer be "Tough break kid?"
      Good take Bothman. Last time I checked, this was still America, where people have the right to change their mind. Does his decision suck for Bruno? Sure does. Should he be trashed for doing so? Nope.
      ""Ralph is the Chuck Norris of this board. Ralph doesnt sleep he just waits." - fishcore12

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      • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

        Originally posted by Humanoid View Post
        The Roy incident is a major issue because it highlights everything that's totally wrong with the way other schools treat the Ivies. The Ivies don't have LOIs, which means it's open recruitment season essentially all year until a freshman sets foot on campus. This could have reverberations in other recruitments for Brown, since they lost not one but two recruits this close tot he start of the school year. And it essentially tells a recruit, "Hey commit to an Ivy just to have it in you rback pocket, but when someone comes calling, you can always just leave."
        This has been the case ever since LOIs came into use in 1964. If this is happening more frequently than is has been in the past (is it?) then what has changed? If this were happening frequently at Cornell, one thing I would definitely question is whether the coaching staff were targeting the wrong recruits. Since before Ned Harkness and Bill Cleary, it has been part of an Ivy coach's job to identify kids that can not only play hockey but also appreciate the opportunity for an Ivy education. Other schools can attempt to poach all they like, but it is ultimately the recruit's decision, so Ivy coaches need to figure out how to weed those guys out during the recruiting process. I'm not saying this is what went on in this case, but if an Ivy ever got "greedy" in trying to recruit better players who are less interested in the education, then part of the fault would lie with them.

        Originally posted by kdiff77 View Post
        Correct me if I'm wrong, Euler (or anyone), but isn't Early Decision a binding contract? If you are accepted to the school, aren't you legally obligated to attend said school unless you can prove some sort of financial shortcoming? That is my understanding of Early Decision, though I admit I am not familiar with the specific language.
        I've been curious about this in the past, so I've done a little digging. As I recall, there's really no binding "contract" (in the legal sense) involved in Early Decision. The only way that theory would ever be tested, of course, is if a school actually did try to sue a student who declined to attend, so that a judge would rule whether the student owed the school any damages for breaking a contract. This will pretty clearly never happen, as no school would ever want to get the reputation as the school who sues high schoolers. If you choose not to go to a school that accepted you Early Decision, you definitely will not owe them a year's tuition. Where Early Decision gets its teeth is in enforcement by other schools. There have been cases where a student was accepted Early Decision at school A, but did not withdraw his application from school B. He was accepted to B and told them that he would like to enroll. Well, School B found out about School A, B informed A, and both schools rescinded their acceptances, so the kid suddenly had no college to attend at all. So it basically comes down to a gentlemen's agreement between the schools to respect each other's Early Decision programs. Again, if a school gets a reputation for not respecting other schools' programs, then everyone else would stop respecting THEIRS, so they all hold each other in check.
        If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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        • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

          Saw Brown was a finalist for NH star JD Dudek (who committed to Boston College recently). I know it doesn't mean much but I guess its comforting to see Brown in the list of schools these top kids are considering now.
          Brown Bears - 2014 National Champions

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          • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

            Originally posted by kdiff77 View Post
            Correct me if I'm wrong, Euler (or anyone), but isn't Early Decision a binding contract? If you are accepted to the school, aren't you legally obligated to attend said school unless you can prove some sort of financial shortcoming? That is my understanding of Early Decision, though I admit I am not familiar with the specific language.

            My point is, how are the Roys getting away with this? It should literally be illegal for them to not attend Brown. I actually don't want them on the team any more because they seem like brats (well, Kevin does, anyway), but if my comprehension of the rules is accurate, they shouldn't have even been able to think about attending a different school, since they were Early Decision.
            Brown turns down more than 25,000 qualified applicants every year, including hundreds of valedictorians. This year the yield (the percentage of admitted students who commit to Brown) was much higher than the admissions office expected. Therefore, I'm sure Brown is happy to have a few students go elsewhere. And if by going elsewhere, they free up some financial aid funds, it's even better!

            Comment


            • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

              Originally posted by bothman View Post
              ]

              Guys, how about some perspective. This is a teenager we are talking about. Not some middle-aged 40 year old. Teenagers make short-sighted decisions, they change their minds, they do all sorts of things they would never do once they undergo the life experiences and the subsequent learnings that come with time and age.

              This absolutely stinks for Brown. And if this happened to the school I follow, I'd be PO'd as well. But let's flip the switch here for a second. If Roy was your kid, and he had a change of heart about the next 4 years of his life, would your answer be "Tough break kid?"
              Except that the process of decomitting from Brown, which included quite a bit of deception, was managed by adults with questionable ethics, who set an awful example for the younger guys.

              Comment


              • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                Originally posted by Wicked Slappaahs View Post
                Good take Bothman. Last time I checked, this was still America, where people have the right to change their mind.
                Yes, but only as contracts permit. And a contract is an agreement (meeting of the minds) between two parties, for which both parties receive consideration. Contracts can't be voided unilaterally simply because one the parties "changed his mind." The other party is entitled to compensation.

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                • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                  Originally posted by Onion Man View Post
                  Saw Brown was a finalist for NH star JD Dudek (who committed to Boston College recently).
                  Brown did well in the swimsuit competition but Boston College did better in the evening gown and the final question.

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                  • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                    Originally posted by Euler18 View Post
                    Yes, but only as contracts permit. And a contract is an agreement (meeting of the minds) between two parties, for which both parties receive consideration. Contracts can't be voided unilaterally simply because one the parties "changed his mind." The other party is entitled to compensation.
                    Of course thats true. But the kid never received any real consideration, (no tuition, no room and board, no hockey sticks) unless you want to argue tha the school holding a place for him in the Class was consideration. I'm sure they didn't have a hard time filling his spot... so there are no damages. I sure wouldn't want to go to court with that argument as Bruno's attorney...I can already see the judge staring down his/her glasses.

                    Not to mention if you ever did bring this to court, recruits (young ones especially) would steer clear of committing to even visiting your school, nevermind agreeing to attend it.
                    ""Ralph is the Chuck Norris of this board. Ralph doesnt sleep he just waits." - fishcore12

                    Comment


                    • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                      Kevin and Derick Roy have been nominated for the Wickham Hardwood Floor Young Elite Program. It appears to be a scholarship program for young Canadian athletes. Both Kevin and Derick are listed as students at Northeastern University, but Derick's autobiography includes the following very curious sentence:

                      "itís very important to me that I continue my studies for as long as I can. Therefore, when I received an offer from Brown, one of the most prestigious universities in the U.S., I immediately accepted."

                      I don't intend to pscyhoanalyse the kid, but it looks like his heart is still on College Hill, not on Huntington Avenue...

                      Here are the links:

                      Derick: http://www.wickhamhardwood.com/Young...erick-Roy.aspx

                      Kevin: http://www.wickhamhardwood.com/Young...Kevin-Roy.aspx

                      Incidentally, Kevin says he'll start his studies at Northeastern in the spring.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                        Originally posted by Wicked Slappaahs View Post
                        Last time I checked, this was still America, where people have the right to change their mind. Does his decision suck for Bruno? Sure does. Should he be trashed for doing so? Nope.
                        Everybody can change his or her mind, but once a written or verbal contract is agreed upon (and verbal contracts are as enforceable as written contracts), one can't simply walk out of it because s/he just feels like. There are consequences.

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                        • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                          Originally posted by Brown09 View Post
                          Everybody can change his or her mind, but once a written or verbal contract is agreed upon (and verbal contracts are as enforceable as written contracts), one can't simply walk out of it because s/he just feels like. There are consequences.
                          As I wrote in #326, if you really want to play barrister with this... the kid never received any consideration, other than the school holding a place in the class for him. I 'm willing to bet that the admissions dept. didnt have any trouble filling that spot, so the school has no monetary damages and no "pain and suffering" other than being minus one stud recruit, which does indeed suck, but isn't grounds for a suit.
                          ""Ralph is the Chuck Norris of this board. Ralph doesnt sleep he just waits." - fishcore12

                          Comment


                          • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                            Originally posted by Brown09 View Post
                            Kevin and Derick Roy have been nominated for the Wickham Hardwood Floor Young Elite Program. It appears to be a scholarship program for young Canadian athletes. Both Kevin and Derick are listed as students at Northeastern University, but Derick's autobiography includes the following very curious sentence:

                            "itís very important to me that I continue my studies for as long as I can. Therefore, when I received an offer from Brown, one of the most prestigious universities in the U.S., I immediately accepted."

                            I don't intend to pscyhoanalyse the kid, but it looks like his heart is still on College Hill, not on Huntington Avenue...

                            Here are the links:

                            Derick: http://www.wickhamhardwood.com/Young...erick-Roy.aspx

                            Kevin: http://www.wickhamhardwood.com/Young...Kevin-Roy.aspx

                            Incidentally, Kevin says he'll start his studies at Northeastern in the spring.
                            Unless the folks at the Greater Quebec Hardwood Flooring Council just dreamt this contest up at the skate shop last night, I'm guessing this has been in the works awhile, with candidates months ago submitting statements supporting their candidacy, hence the dated bio info.

                            But you can continue to grip the reigns tightly, if you must...
                            ""Ralph is the Chuck Norris of this board. Ralph doesnt sleep he just waits." - fishcore12

                            Comment


                            • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                              Originally posted by Wicked Slappaahs View Post
                              Of course thats true. But the kid never received any real consideration, (no tuition, no room and board, no hockey sticks) unless you want to argue tha the school holding a place for him in the Class was consideration. I'm sure they didn't have a hard time filling his spot... so there are no damages. I sure wouldn't want to go to court with that argument as Bruno's attorney...I can already see the judge staring down his/her glasses.
                              Are you for real? Brown reportedly gave each kid a $50,000 scholarship for four years, whether they played hockey or not. Such offers are part of acceptance letters. The Roys accepted the offer from Brown in writing. Once they did, Brown couldn't change its mind any longer. Please, keep in mind that each Roy also received a recruiting slot, which moved them over many talented kids with straight A academic averages who didn't get in. Imagine how much an admission slot to Brown would be worth if it could be traded in the open market. Brown receives 30,000 applications for 1,500 spots. An admission slot to Brown is a very valuable commodity.

                              So this is the consideration: in recognition of their hockey talent, the Roys were given places in the class of 2016 plus $200,000 each in scholarship money. I understand they're good students, who attended excellent prep schools, but it's fair to assume that without that valuable recruiting slot, they wouldn't have gotten into Brown. Being even an outstanding student doesn't ensure admission to Brown. As someone has said, the Ivies are known for turning down hundreds of valedictorians. So, the Roys received quite a bit of consideration.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Brown Hockey 2012-2013:Climbing the ECAC Ladder

                                Originally posted by Wicked Slappaahs View Post
                                Unless the folks at the Greater Quebec Hardwood Flooring Council just dreamt this contest up at the skate shop last night, I'm guessing this has been in the works awhile, with candidates months ago submitting statements supporting their candidacy, hence the dated bio info.

                                But you can continue to grip the reigns tightly, if you must...
                                Obviously you can't read. I said that the autobiographies mention that the Roys are students at Northeastern, so it's fair to assume that the texts were written over the past thirty days. But Derick's autobiography, even though it states that he's a goaltender at Northeastern University, also includes the curious sentence about his acceptance to Brown. It appears that Brown is still on the kid's mind. It has been reported by someone on this thread that Derick was in tears when he called coach Whittet about the decommitment. I would be, too, if my family had decided that I should turn Brown down to attend Northeastern.

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