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Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

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  • #16
    Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

    Originally posted by moose97 View Post
    OMG... So they would have to fly? That would be terrible. MTU has to fly to CC and Denver - and pay for it. BSU this year has to fly to UAA, CC and DU (plus CHOSE to play @ Miami OOC).

    Please stop. It's fine if the CCHA wanted to save money by eliminating travel to UNO and not replace it with UAH, but then they should have had the balls to come out and say so. And to say that cost savings was more important than "saving" UAH. Instead, all we get is, "UAH is too far away" and "what about the 48 hour rule" when clearly none of that is true.
    Several people from the CCHA stated travel concerns as a factor in their no votes. And when you look at CCHA revenues vs WCHA revenues, there is a big difference. Each school generates more in tournament revenue by a long shot. And when you talk ticket revenue, WCHA teams rank 1-3-4-5-6-8-9-12 in average tickets per game, while only Michigan and MSU are in the top 12. Now take the NMU's LSSU's and Ferris States, who are facing budget cuts in state aid and show them where an extra $10,000 for plane tickets comes from. Do you take it out of recruiting? Do you downgrade to staying at Motel 6 on your road trips? If you're so confident that adding UAH is a reasonable fiscal move, why won't the WCHA consider it?
    "The use of common sense and logic will not be tolerated and may result in fine and/or suspension."- Western Professional Hockey League By-laws. 1999-2000.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

      Originally posted by davyd83 View Post
      Several people from the CCHA stated travel concerns as a factor in their no votes.
      I don't recall any press release stating this. Maybe that's what all the teams were saying behind the scenes. And that's kind of my point - man up and say why the CCHA denied UAH. That cost savings of not traveling to UNO is more valuable than saving UAH.

      Originally posted by davyd83 View Post
      And when you look at CCHA revenues vs WCHA revenues, there is a big difference. Each school generates more in tournament revenue by a long shot. And when you talk ticket revenue, WCHA teams rank 1-3-4-5-6-8-9-12 in average tickets per game, while only Michigan and MSU are in the top 12. Now take the NMU's LSSU's and Ferris States, who are facing budget cuts in state aid and show them where an extra $10,000 for plane tickets comes from. Do you take it out of recruiting? Do you downgrade to staying at Motel 6 on your road trips?
      Let's not pretend that the CCHA schools are alone in these tough financial times. BSU faced a $5 million deficit (and cut men's track); MSUM had to cut $6-10 million and cut 3 sports; SCSU had to have a student vote to increase fees to save football from the chopping block. And that's with WCHA revenue...

      Originally posted by davyd83 View Post
      If you're so confident that adding UAH is a reasonable fiscal move, why won't the WCHA consider it?
      Why should they? And note, I never said that the CCHA should now either. Looking back at the summer of '09, it was a somewhat lateral move (sure, losing UNO hurt), but travel budget-wise, it would not have been any added expense (especially with the $10,000 per team subsidy from UAH). We can argue ad nausium the merits of the WCHA "going after" UNO, but it made sense. CCHA fans that were upset by it are just showing sour grapes.

      Like I have said before, at this point, UAH doesn't currently fit anywhere (unless someone else drops the sport). If the WCHA stands pat at 10 and the CCHA stays at 8, no - it makes no sense to add UAH. Even if we get some sort of "Super 6" I don't see a spot for them.

      HOWEVER, in the summer of 2009, there was a completely legitimate spot in a conference with an odd number of teams. PSU was still a year away from even thinking about adding hockey (seeing as Terry Pegulia didn't sell his land until ~May of 2010). So, that being said, all I wanted was for the CCHA to have said publicly that they'd rather save money on travel budgets than save UAH. Really - it's pretty simple.

      See? That way we could stop this charade about "UAH is too far away" and "what about the 48 hour rule?" The simple answer would be that the CCHA was more interested in saving itself than saving UAH. And if that's true, fine. At least own up to it.
      Last edited by moose97; 05-18-2011, 07:28 PM.
      Current NCAA D-I rinks I've been to:

      AHA:
      B1G: UMinn, UWisc
      ECAC:
      HEA: UMass, Notre Dame
      NCHC: UMD, UND, SCSU, WMU
      WCHA: UAH, BSU, FSU, LSSU, MSU, MTU, NMU

      Inactive: BSU, UMD, UND, NMU, Notre Dame

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

        Great post Moose. It's nice to actually be able to discuss the sport, either agree or disagree, with logical, rational posters who make well thought out posts!
        "The use of common sense and logic will not be tolerated and may result in fine and/or suspension."- Western Professional Hockey League By-laws. 1999-2000.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

          OK ... so 10 minutes of thinking about it results in ...

          RWHA (Real West Hockey Association)
          UAA
          UAF
          Denver
          CC
          UND
          UAH
          This would work because of several factors. These schools all already fly well. There is an ability to schedule additional non-conference games at home for each team due to the exemptions from playing in Alaska (meaning as much as 22 games on the home schedule for UND, DU, CC and 14 on the road). A guaranteed good gross from the yearly RWHA conference tournament at the 11,000+ seat Ralph (many configurations possible there with UND getting all the "sweet" night games).

          UAA and UAF subsidize all travel for all members. Cooperative scheduling for Alaska trips ... i.e ... Sunday/Monday games at one school then Thursday/Friday games at the other .. teams would travel on Friday and return home on Saturday. Both UAA and UAF currently stay in the lower 48 for consecutive series at least once per year and both sets of student/athletes perform well in the classroom (technology also makes this very workable).

          WCHA
          UMD
          UNO
          SCSU
          Mankato
          Bemidji
          MTU
          This works because it eliminates pretty much all flights for the Minnesota schools and they maintain all their instate rivalries. They keep the pretty MTU Cup and can host their conference tournament at any number of rinks in the Minnesota (Xcel or Target for example depending on demand) area with lots of seats which would generate a nice tournament revenue. In-State fan interest would be maintained.

          CCHA
          Miami
          Notre Dame
          Ferris St.
          Northern Mich.
          Lake State
          BGSU
          Western
          This works because it already works now. Michigan and Michigan State were not some huge cash cow for these programs anyway. It's almost a maintains the status quo solution. One may argue that there is a revenue decrease from the Big10 schools departure but what can you do? Everyone has that issue. With 7 schools this conference has some small amount of breathing room should one go TU. And none of these whiners has to go to Alaska or Alabama.

          Other good reasons ...
          3 auto-bids that 20 schools compete for versus 2.
          Maintains geographic integrity.
          Saves UAH.
          Maintains and enhances "ACTUAL" rivalries.
          Keeps most of the schools that moan about travel to Alaska from "having" to go.

          Reasons it wouldn't work ...
          DU thinks they're something they aren't.
          DU is skerred to play other "real" western teams.
          DU thinks they can tell CC what to do.
          Last edited by uaafanblog; 05-18-2011, 08:10 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

            Originally posted by davyd83 View Post
            Great post Moose. It's nice to actually be able to discuss the sport, either agree or disagree, with logical, rational posters who make well thought out posts!
            The biggest problem, IMHO, is that 99.9% of even college hockey media (let alone fans) don't know the sport all that well outside their own conference. It's not like football or basketball where a fan can watch all the relevant teams every week (if they buy the respective TV package). I mean, I watch as much college hockey as anyone I know (if it's on TV, I DVR it and watch usually between 6-10 games a week), but even still - I've never seen several teams on TV let alone live.

            Now extrapolate that out to the "average" fan who only watches their own team and only when they are at home (not talking spoiled Gophers fans who see their team every week on TV). What does that fan know about a school they see once or twice a year, if that (let alone if they are OOC and they are grasping at straws that they Google)?

            The best example I have is SCSU. I was involved in a discussion about them maybe dropping football, and the topic came up - why don't they just increase ticket prices for hockey $5? That'll raise a half-million right there (~100,000 reported attendance for the season X $5)! Well, if you've been to a SCSU game lately, you know that the reported attendance is pure fantasy (sell-out? maybe half-full), and not only that, but people I've talked to down there say that they no longer buy season tickets since they know they can walk-up and buy for Gopher games. Plus, they don't think that they're getting their money worth as it is... So, while you can look on the internet and come up with this theory about raising ticket prices and solve SCSU's budget problem, unless you've been there and talked to people, you wouldn't know that it can't possibly work.

            My point? Folks get all fired up that they are an "expert" on everything (and this is the internet in general, not just college hockey) because they Googled it and read all about it on Wikipedia... Now, if you are and do know something? Great. But if not, shut up and listen to those that actually do (and no, Dave, that's not me telling you to shut up It's more directed towards those that **** us all off on here more often than not).

            Oh, and I agree with your main point (sorry for my rambling tonight). More folks need to realize that you can have an intelligent discussion where the sides disagree. And that goes for real life as well as the internet.
            Current NCAA D-I rinks I've been to:

            AHA:
            B1G: UMinn, UWisc
            ECAC:
            HEA: UMass, Notre Dame
            NCHC: UMD, UND, SCSU, WMU
            WCHA: UAH, BSU, FSU, LSSU, MSU, MTU, NMU

            Inactive: BSU, UMD, UND, NMU, Notre Dame

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

              Originally posted by uaafanblog View Post
              OK ... so 10 minutes of thinking about it results in ...

              RWHA (Real West Hockey Association)
              UAA
              UAF
              Denver
              CC
              UND
              UAH
              This would work because of several factors. These schools all already fly well. There is an ability to schedule additional non-conference games at home for each team due to the exemptions from playing in Alaska (meaning as much as 22 games on the home schedule for UND, DU, CC and 14 on the road). A guaranteed good gross from the yearly RWHA conference tournament at the 11,000+ seat Ralph (many configurations possible there with UND getting all the "sweet" night games).

              UAA and UAF subsidize all travel for all members. Cooperative scheduling for Alaska trips ... i.e ... Sunday/Monday games at one school then Thursday/Friday games at the other .. teams would travel on Friday and return home on Saturday. Both UAA and UAF currently stay in the lower 48 for consecutive series at least once per year and both sets of student/athletes perform well in the classroom (technology also makes this very workable).

              WCHA
              UMD
              UNO
              SCSU
              Mankato
              Bemidji
              MTU
              This works because it eliminates pretty much all flights for the Minnesota schools and they maintain all their instate rivalries. They keep the pretty MTU Cup and can host their conference tournament at any number of rinks in the Minnesota (Xcel or Target for example depending on demand) area with lots of seats which would generate a nice tournament revenue. In-State fan interest would be maintained.

              CCHA
              Miami
              Notre Dame
              Ferris St.
              Northern Mich.
              Lake State
              BGSU
              Western
              This works because it already works now. Michigan and Michigan State were not some huge cash cow for these programs anyway. It's almost a maintains the status quo solution. One may argue that there is a revenue decrease from the Big10 schools departure but what can you do? Everyone has that issue. With 7 schools this conference has some small amount of breathing room should one go TU. And none of these whiners has to go to Alaska or Alabama.

              Other good reasons ...
              3 auto-bids that 20 schools compete for versus 2.
              Maintains geographic integrity.
              Saves UAH.
              Maintains and enhances "ACTUAL" rivalries.
              Keeps most of the schools that moan about travel to Alaska from "having" to go.

              Reasons it wouldn't work ...
              DU thinks they're something they aren't.
              DU is skerred to play other "real" western teams.
              DU thinks they can tell CC what to do.
              Something like this is far too rational and logical to ever happen. Great post. The only thing I might switch here is flipping North Dakota and UNO. With UNO in the west, it means bus trips for CC and Denver for meetings with UNO. North Dakota is also in a much better travel situation as well.
              "The use of common sense and logic will not be tolerated and may result in fine and/or suspension."- Western Professional Hockey League By-laws. 1999-2000.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                Originally posted by uaafanblog View Post
                OK ... so 10 minutes of thinking about it results in ...

                RWHA (Real West Hockey Association)
                UAA
                UAF
                Denver
                CC
                UND
                UAH
                This would work because of several factors. These schools all already fly well. There is an ability to schedule additional non-conference games at home for each team due to the exemptions from playing in Alaska (meaning as much as 22 games on the home schedule for UND, DU, CC and 14 on the road). A guaranteed good gross from the yearly RWHA conference tournament at the 11,000+ seat Ralph (many configurations possible there with UND getting all the "sweet" night games).

                UAA and UAF subsidize all travel for all members. Cooperative scheduling for Alaska trips ... i.e ... Sunday/Monday games at one school then Thursday/Friday games at the other .. teams would travel on Friday and return home on Saturday. Both UAA and UAF currently stay in the lower 48 for consecutive series at least once per year and both sets of student/athletes perform well in the classroom (technology also makes this very workable).

                WCHA
                UMD
                UNO
                SCSU
                Mankato
                Bemidji
                MTU
                This works because it eliminates pretty much all flights for the Minnesota schools and they maintain all their instate rivalries. They keep the pretty MTU Cup and can host their conference tournament at any number of rinks in the Minnesota (Xcel or Target for example depending on demand) area with lots of seats which would generate a nice tournament revenue. In-State fan interest would be maintained.

                CCHA
                Miami
                Notre Dame
                Ferris St.
                Northern Mich.
                Lake State
                BGSU
                Western
                This works because it already works now. Michigan and Michigan State were not some huge cash cow for these programs anyway. It's almost a maintains the status quo solution. One may argue that there is a revenue decrease from the Big10 schools departure but what can you do? Everyone has that issue. With 7 schools this conference has some small amount of breathing room should one go TU. And none of these whiners has to go to Alaska or Alabama.

                Other good reasons ...
                3 auto-bids that 20 schools compete for versus 2.
                Maintains geographic integrity.
                Saves UAH.
                Maintains and enhances "ACTUAL" rivalries.
                Keeps most of the schools that moan about travel to Alaska from "having" to go.

                Reasons it wouldn't work ...
                DU thinks they're something they aren't.
                DU is skerred to play other "real" western teams.
                DU thinks they can tell CC what to do.
                Thanks to uaafanblog and cooperalls for putting UAH in your conferences! Hope somebody in authority does the same. I think UAH only flew once last year - lots of long bus trips. The RWHA would be cause for more flights.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                  Originally posted by moose97 View Post
                  I don't recall any press release stating this. Maybe that's what all the teams were saying behind the scenes. And that's kind of my point - man up and say why the CCHA denied UAH. That cost savings of not traveling to UNO is more valuable than saving UAH.



                  Let's not pretend that the CCHA schools are alone in these tough financial times. BSU faced a $5 million deficit (and cut men's track); MSUM had to cut $6-10 million and cut 3 sports; SCSU had to have a student vote to increase fees to save football from the chopping block. And that's with WCHA revenue...



                  Why should they? And note, I never said that the CCHA should now either. Looking back at the summer of '09, it was a somewhat lateral move (sure, losing UNO hurt), but travel budget-wise, it would not have been any added expense (especially with the $10,000 per team subsidy from UAH). We can argue ad nausium the merits of the WCHA "going after" UNO, but it made sense. CCHA fans that were upset by it are just showing sour grapes.

                  Like I have said before, at this point, UAH doesn't currently fit anywhere (unless someone else drops the sport). If the WCHA stands pat at 10 and the CCHA stays at 8, no - it makes no sense to add UAH. Even if we get some sort of "Super 6" I don't see a spot for them.

                  HOWEVER, in the summer of 2009, there was a completely legitimate spot in a conference with an odd number of teams. PSU was still a year away from even thinking about adding hockey (seeing as Terry Pegulia didn't sell his land until ~May of 2010). So, that being said, all I wanted was for the CCHA to have said publicly that they'd rather save money on travel budgets than save UAH. Really - it's pretty simple.

                  See? That way we could stop this charade about "UAH is too far away" and "what about the 48 hour rule?" The simple answer would be that the CCHA was more interested in saving itself than saving UAH. And if that's true, fine. At least own up to it.
                  Moose - couldn't an uneven # of teams in a conference be overcome in order to help save a program?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                    Suffice to say that there is a high degree of probability that there will be some realignment after this season, but what it will be is unknown at this time. However, we need to thank each other for saving the various presidents, conference commissioners, and athletic directors hours of work in coming up with the best fit conference for their college.
                    CCT '77 & '78
                    4 kids
                    5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                    1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                      Originally posted by chargersupporter View Post
                      Moose - couldn't an uneven # of teams in a conference be overcome in order to help save a program?
                      Well, sure. But that's the problem at this point - someone basically has to go out of their way to "save" UAH. In 2009, there was a logical spot. Now, not so much.

                      Where do you propose UAH goes at this point? CCHA post BTHC? A cost containment league struggling to keep teams from dropping the sport. WCHA post BTHC? More western-based than before, but concerned about future upheaval. "Super 6" college hockey? Where exactly would UAH fit in then? Not in the Super 6. And not in any of the remnant conferences that would be more cost containment type leagues. If one of these conferences went out and decided to be proactive and "get" UAH, then there's a spot. But the more I talk to people and the more I think on the subject, the more I think UAH missed their chance in 2009. Which is what makes me more frustrated at the CCHA and their stance (lack of transparency) from that time.
                      Current NCAA D-I rinks I've been to:

                      AHA:
                      B1G: UMinn, UWisc
                      ECAC:
                      HEA: UMass, Notre Dame
                      NCHC: UMD, UND, SCSU, WMU
                      WCHA: UAH, BSU, FSU, LSSU, MSU, MTU, NMU

                      Inactive: BSU, UMD, UND, NMU, Notre Dame

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                        You're right - someone will have to go out of their way to help out UAH.

                        Doesn't look good.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                          Originally posted by davyd83 View Post
                          Something like this is far too rational and logical to ever happen. Great post. The only thing I might switch here is flipping North Dakota and UNO. With UNO in the west, it means bus trips for CC and Denver for meetings with UNO. North Dakota is also in a much better travel situation as well.
                          DU and CC will have bus trips ... to each other. And if I'm the A.D. at either of those schools, my guys are flying to Omaha ... not riding on a bus for 9 or 10 hours. Why do people think that much time on a cramped bus is better than flying? UND is the attractive member for any potential conference due to their ability to host a sold-out conference tournament. The WCHA won't need UND to accomplish good revenue from a conference tourny; the instate pride of Minnesota hockey in general will do the trick for that. The RWHA on the other hand will depend on two things to make it go; the largess UAA and UAF will be willing to provide to cover travel costs and the revenues from the conference tournament. UNO cannot begin to offer anything like that. Being in the proposed new WCHA wouldn't "do anything" really for UND. Do you think the Minnesota schools would be willing to let UND host the conference tournament every year? Hells no they wouldn't. The RWHA schools on the other hand won't mind a bit; they're all used to going to a dedicated away site for their tourney. UND also will want the extra home game revenue that seating an additional 22,000 people for a home series provides. UAH gets slotted into the RWHA because nobody else wants them and because the only two other schools in college hockey that understand the need to save them (UAA and UAF) are members. If anything, I'd trade UNO with NMU in order to put the NMU/MTU rivalry in a conference but I doubt the other Michigan schools would really want to see that happen. In all scenarios, UNO is pretty much just "leftovers" and will just have to take what they get.

                          Anyway, like I said the major impediment to any logical realignment is the level of butthurt from DU. Regardless of that though they really don't have the clout to pull off the imaginary BHHC. One can yap all day about UND, ND and Miami joining DU and CC for that pipe dream but as been pointed out ad infinitum on this board there is no real benefit for ND or Miami to align themselves in such a way. Not to mention that CC doesn't see itself in the same overinflated vain as the DU fan cabal who invented, spread and continue to support the rumor of the "super-six" BHHC as if it is some sort of real possibility.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                            Originally posted by uaafanblog View Post
                            DU and CC will have bus trips ... to each other. And if I'm the A.D. at either of those schools, my guys are flying to Omaha ... not riding on a bus for 9 or 10 hours. Why do people think that much time on a cramped bus is better than flying? UND is the attractive member for any potential conference due to their ability to host a sold-out conference tournament. The WCHA won't need UND to accomplish good revenue from a conference tourny; the instate pride of Minnesota hockey in general will do the trick for that. The RWHA on the other hand will depend on two things to make it go; the largess UAA and UAF will be willing to provide to cover travel costs and the revenues from the conference tournament. UNO cannot begin to offer anything like that. Being in the proposed new WCHA wouldn't "do anything" really for UND. Do you think the Minnesota schools would be willing to let UND host the conference tournament every year? Hells no they wouldn't. The RWHA schools on the other hand won't mind a bit; they're all used to going to a dedicated away site for their tourney. UND also will want the extra home game revenue that seating an additional 22,000 people for a home series provides. UAH gets slotted into the RWHA because nobody else wants them and because the only two other schools in college hockey that understand the need to save them (UAA and UAF) are members. If anything, I'd trade UNO with NMU in order to put the NMU/MTU rivalry in a conference but I doubt the other Michigan schools would really want to see that happen. In all scenarios, UNO is pretty much just "leftovers" and will just have to take what they get.

                            Anyway, like I said the major impediment to any logical realignment is the level of butthurt from DU. Regardless of that though they really don't have the clout to pull off the imaginary BHHC. One can yap all day about UND, ND and Miami joining DU and CC for that pipe dream but as been pointed out ad infinitum on this board there is no real benefit for ND or Miami to align themselves in such a way. Not to mention that CC doesn't see itself in the same overinflated vain as the DU fan cabal who invented, spread and continue to support the rumor of the "super-six" BHHC as if it is some sort of real possibility.
                            Why not make this RWHA a 7-team league and include UNO? 24 league game schedule, and 10 or 14 NC games.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                              Originally posted by uaafanblog View Post
                              Why do people think that much time on a cramped bus is better than flying?
                              $$$$$
                              tUMD is Jan Brady per Brenthoven. Whew.... thanks for clearing THAT up.

                              Best USCHO quotes to date:

                              "UND/DU will realize that their party sucks, because the easterners only want to drink Zima." - BPH

                              "It is too bad that aaron marvin was a senior so he can't go after the rest of the sioux". - bigblue_dl

                              "I would rather play the blackhawks than you right now." - dogs2012

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Conference Realignment needed for 2012-13 season?

                                Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
                                Why not make this RWHA a 7-team league and include UNO? 24 league game schedule, and 10 or 14 NC games.
                                In that vein, any of the 3 of these divisions (west, Minnesota, and east) could be the 7-team member. I still don't see UAA and UAF being allowed to play with each other, so I think if one would be seven and people really wanna see NMU and MTU together, have them move to the central, (unfortunately) send UND west and give the MN division one of the Alaska teams, and it really doesn't matter which.
                                tUMD is Jan Brady per Brenthoven. Whew.... thanks for clearing THAT up.

                                Best USCHO quotes to date:

                                "UND/DU will realize that their party sucks, because the easterners only want to drink Zima." - BPH

                                "It is too bad that aaron marvin was a senior so he can't go after the rest of the sioux". - bigblue_dl

                                "I would rather play the blackhawks than you right now." - dogs2012

                                Comment

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