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Dan
03-27-2012, 08:56 AM
I'd have to agree with most of Watcher's points and I'm thrilled that he's back on the board - its a much more interesting and informative place with him around. Whether you agree with him or not.

The most critical point is that the recruiting process seems to have passed this staff by - whether that is relating to today's players (in getting top kids), understanding today's player's time lines (decisions to defer, etc.) or the hurdles/obstacles to recruiting (admissions, early recruiting evaluations, etc). Things change and I've seen a lot of older coaches in various sports lose touch with the ability to get the best kids to campus.

You don't win in college athletics without top talent - it doesn't matter who you are or how good a coach you are. You can easily argue that Umile and his staff are great coaches and developers of talent, often getting more out of their roster than other staffs. I'd buy that. Imagine what they could do if they still had elite talent!

BC and Jerry York are clearly SO committed to recruiting. They are all over it - banging the bushes with young assistants (even York appears to live much younger than his years), understanding today's athletes and what they're looking for, bringing in talent early and letting it develop on lower lines. They clearly get it. THAT is why they are successful. Sure it helps to be BC, but recruiting well is still a lot of hard work and they put in that work smartly and consistently.

UNH would have been wise to take a chance on a younger assistant. Recruits are always told to commit to the school and not the coach or the recruiter (who may or may not be there), but what do they normally do? They commit to the relationships they build with the staffs. Imagine Ciocco or Foley leading a recruit and their parents around campus - families would fall in love with these guys. They could sell UNH incredibly well.

Again, I'm with Watcher - get kids on campus to see everything UNH has to offer. Give them a chance to relate to young, energetic recruiters and its an easy sell. The current recruiters are all older than their parents. They just aren't going to build those relationships.

I'm sure Torterella is a great coach - but lets give a lot of the credit for the defensive/goaltending turnaround to making the switch to a more talented goaltender. Talent makes a coach look great. UNH needs more of it.

C-H-C
03-27-2012, 09:24 AM
My experience has been that you are most likely to see a Head Coach at a junior hockey game (e.g., prep tournament, EJHL game, other Showcases, etc.) when the program is very close to making an offer to a particular player.
A couple of examples:
In January, I saw Coach Whitehead at the EJHL All-Star Game in Hooksett, NH. Shortly after, Steve Swavely of the Jersey Hitmen and Conor Riley of the Jr. Warriors accepted an offer to play at Maine.
A couple of weeks ago, I saw Coach Cahoon at an EJHL playoff game in Marlborough, MA. A few days later, K.J. Tiefenwerth of the Jr. Bruins committed to UMass.
The primary recruiter (e.g., Coach Borek for UNH) does most of the leg-work when a prospect is being evaluated. The head coach is most likely to attend a junior game when a final decision on a prospect needs to be made.

C-H-C
03-27-2012, 09:33 AM
get kids on campus to see everything UNH has to offer. Give them a chance to relate to young, energetic recruiters and its an easy sell. The current recruiters are all older than their parents. They just aren't going to build those relationships.

Coach Borek's 17-year-old son Gordon plays hockey for Holderness.

C-H-C
03-27-2012, 09:38 AM
Imagine Ciocco or Foley leading a recruit and their parents around campus - families would fall in love with these guys. They could sell UNH incredibly well.

Agreed. The timing wasn't right. Ciocco is not a defensive specialist and Foley had just signed a contract with Northeastern. Wouldn't be surprised to see one of them coaching for UNH in the future.

bomberhockey
03-27-2012, 10:08 AM
[QUOTE=Dan;5414520]I

BC and Jerry York are clearly SO committed to recruiting. They are all over it - banging the bushes with young assistants (even York appears to live much younger than his years), understanding today's athletes and what they're looking for, bringing in talent early and letting it develop on lower lines. They clearly get it. THAT is why they are successful. Sure it helps to be BC, but recruiting well is still a lot of hard work and they put in that work smartly and consistently.

UNH would have been wise to take a chance on a younger assistant. Recruits are always told to commit to the school and not the coach or the recruiter (who may or may not be there), but what do they normally do? They commit to the relationships they build with the staffs. Imagine Ciocco or Foley leading a recruit and their parents around campus - families would fall in love with these guys. They could sell UNH incredibly well.

York, et al have money to be tenacious in recruiting, and what they are selling especially to Boston area kids doesn't compare. On the road BC has the money to "drop in" on recruits and fly right back out. UNH budget doesn't allow for that, the agenda is planned months and months in advance, when there's money at all. And then it mean driving all over the midwest(USHL) and midwest to Western Canada. Don't be fooled in many cases the parents are very influential in the decision(aka Laleggia). If you were a parent wouldn't you feel more comfortable having your kid come to a school where there is maturity on the staff vs a "snot nosed kid" a couple years older than your kid? Experience is everything, with kids, parents, advisers and player's coaches. If a young kid's going to recruit he'd have to build up those relationships. For example, Foley can only call a few places if he needs to pick up a kid, the two guys now have countless contacts. Although Foley and Ciocco look very promising one has a ways to go and the other a very long way to go to get what UNH has now. Even Stewie and White have some distance. Imagine if Foley were available last summer and he could be mentored by Borek on the road, then you have something. At Harvard I'm sure his recruiting tactics were much different, selling the "best school in the world", and possibly an admissions director with more rigorous requirements( tongue in cheek). As far as energy, no one can possibly have more energy than Borek especially on the road and he is personable.

bomberhockey
03-27-2012, 10:11 AM
Coach Borek's 17-year-old son Gordon plays hockey for Holderness.
The "96" is the player!

C-H-C
03-27-2012, 10:20 AM
The "96" is the player!
Sick, pathetic joke alert: So Coach Borek didn't need to send him any e-mails?!

The "96" Borek is 15-year-old Charley Borek (http://seacoastspartans.net/news.php?news_id=391465).

bomberhockey
03-27-2012, 10:25 AM
I suspect these are rhetorical questions, and that you know the answer better than me, but here's what I find: Probably pretty highly, given that NH does not have a state income tax, effectively adding 6% to his salary viz. those in Mass and RI, or a sales tax (6% in Mass). Add that the cost of living in NH is notably lower than in Mass, and you get a decent wage. And it's a guaranteed lifetime contract that he earned the past decade, so that while others may have come closer, he was well compensated for his success. (Compare Don Cahoon earns $240,000).


All of this distracts from the main issue, which is whether Umile is up to rebuilding a crumbled foundation. I've stated why I don't think so. Others feel the opposite, and I don't think its worth arguing about because it's not going to change anything. They are, by all accounts, decent people. Hence why I choose to let those who like the team and Umile enjoy it without my negativity raining on their parade.
Watcher, I don't know, I just knew it was reported he made 382k a few years back, but that was with deferred income being reported? I had heard is 5th or 6th in the league but don't know that to be accurate either.

bomberhockey
03-27-2012, 10:33 AM
Sick, pathetic joke alert: So Coach Borek didn't need to send him any e-mails?!

The "96" Borek is 15-year-old Charley Borek (http://seacoastspartans.net/news.php?news_id=391465).]
Probably only from his wife's computer.

Darius
03-27-2012, 10:53 AM
York, et al have money to be tenacious in recruiting, and what they are selling especially to Boston area kids doesn't compare. On the road BC has the money to "drop in" on recruits and fly right back out. UNH budget doesn't allow for that, the agenda is planned months and months in advance, when there's money at all.


...in many cases the parents are very influential in the decision...Nice points and discussion along with the other recent posts.

What about the 4 year vs. early departure scenario? UNH is places emphasis on 4 year graduation rate where BC, BU are clearly willing to accept players who are unlikely to spend 4 years on the team. Maybe this would be different if NHL draft picks were lined up in front of the Whitt, but I suspect admissions wouldn't agree. For recruits with marginal professional potential a parent would look at UNH as a great place for their son to develop. If he doesn't progress enough to be offered a contract or try out, they've got a degree from a fine school where they grew as a player, student and individual. If a full scholarship is not offered then making up the UNH difference is less of a burden that at BU, BC.

From the Union Leader: UNH's Moses and Kipp take it up to pro level
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120327/SPORTS/703279987

JB
03-27-2012, 12:04 PM
I always come back to be careful what you wish for... Army, Sneddon even Cahoon were big "hits" at their schools when hired. Would you trade Umile for any of them? A flip is who in Hockey East would you trade Umile for going forward not past wins? York - yes, Dennehy, Leamen or Bazin - maybe not the track record but certainly the potential, Parker or Whitehead - I wouldn't, I don't even consider the other 3.

My issue is recruiting is not performing as it should. The talent isn't getting on campus. Doing the same thing over and over again (since Borek arrived in 2002) and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Borek seems to be a nice guy and I wouldn't argue that he is high energy, however there is something fundamentally flawed in the current strategy. Maybe Borek just can't see the talent, there is a story about Standbrook and Crowder at Maine - Crowder couldn't see the talent.

Beyond just identifying the kids there is a problem in the process with getting them on campus, be it admissions or to me the bigger issue is deferrals. I worry the deferrals are less about talent and more about the 18 being filled so the money isn't available. In many cases by some other deferral finally coming in, it is a "cap space" problem and it is costing UNH hockey credibility more than the players.

I have always been told in general Umile is HC and does forward work, Tortorella is the D, PK and Goalies, Borek is Recruiting PP and Forwards. Yes they all do recruiting. I have no problem with young and old coaches on the staff.

If that summary is correct I am most galled by recruiting and the power play. That is the role that needs significant improvement. You would think the pattern would be obvious with 10 years of declining results. Borek’s first year was .738% winning and it has trended down since.

I don’t really want a new head coach. But if I am athletic director I am pointing out these issues and asking for action plans to correct them. The trend is disturbing and the data points to one coach and HC either needs to fix it or somebody else needs to be the HC.

P.S. Watcher - I'm happy your back for some reasoned banter.

goblue
03-27-2012, 10:03 PM
York was also at all three days of the 2010. No late 2010 signees, but within the week Ryan Fitzgerald committed for 2013.
Not significant in itself, but perhaps a symptom of the lack of engagement between HC and recruits that seems to be dogging the team. Fine when it works and your success makes recruits interested no matter what (look at BU with Jack Parker), but when it stops working, maybe HC should engage, or get a younger assistant who can interact with the potential and actual recruits (so that they actually have a deeper interest in making it to UNH).
I suspect given his peer group, Umile has the Parker model in mind, and he does not strike me as a flexible guy likely to change. Ironically, BU had greater success with younger assistant David Quinn but when he left, Parker went with an older peer, Buddy Powers, very similar to the Tortorella hire. In contrast, BC keeps getting younger on the assistants. When Rolston left in 04, 35 year old unproven David Brown was brought aboard. When Paluch left in 02 35 year old Rolston was brought aboard. When Buddy Powers left in 88, 28 year old Wayne Wilson was hired. When Terry Flanagan died in 91, 27 year old Scott Paluch was hired.

There's a mindset, one of conservatism resisting change, and one of seeing change as an opportunity to mentor someone and gaining something from the change. You see two distinct models. One does not fit all. For example, Notre Dame's Jeff Jackson hired Paul Pooley rather than get a younger guy when he was hired in 2005 (he did have younger Slaggert on the staff). Umile seems to follow the Parker model, but doesn't have the resume of Parker and BU or Notre Dame's reputation to carry it off.
Watcher, I'll echo the other posters who have welcomed your presence back to these forums. You possess hockey insight that doesn't stop at ice level. You also have apparent (and I don't mean that in a snarky way) knowledge of Who's Who in the college hockey world -- certainly in New England. These people include players and coaches -- past and present -- but also personalities. Your comments about Jerry York appearing at the Beantown Spring Classic -- not only this year, but in past years -- and for how many days -- indicates that you, too must have been there, or have a connection with someone who was. (And I suspect your knowledge base isn't largely derived from Google.)

And thus my question to you: what is your connection? Your fluency with faces, facts and figures extends to a much more intimate level than the average (or even above-average) fan is capable of. I understand that these forums allow us to wear a cloak of invisibility if we so wish, and I'm not asking you to reveal your identity, but who are you? Are you a coach? A scout? A former player? If not any of these, then ...?

I'm sincerely curious.

boblav1
04-07-2012, 10:41 AM
FYI UNH @ CC - 11/23/12

http://www.cctigers.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=101

carltonbarrett
04-07-2012, 11:10 AM
And thus my question to you: what is your connection? Your fluency with faces, facts and figures extends to a much more intimate level than the average (or even above-average) fan is capable of. I understand that these forums allow us to wear a cloak of invisibility if we so wish, and I'm not asking you to reveal your identity, but who are you? Are you a coach? A scout? A former player? If not any of these, then ...?

I'm sincerely curious.

He's bobo

ChinaHockey
04-08-2012, 01:03 AM
It seems admin is the fault for not securing the talent that Borek and others have recruited. Much like the hockey club is concerned, the other parts must be part of a team. If they recruit them, it's for a reason. So, admin please help to close the deal.

That being said, I remember Brian Mccloskey as a player for Dartmouth. He was great and wore the #10 for the Big Green. He was small but shifty. Loved to watch him play, we was a star on a great team. He took a slap shot from the point to the face, before the helmets had a full face mask. I was a kid, but I thought it killed him. He came back to wear a half shield later in the season. Warrior, that would have laid me out for good!

Now, Scotty Borek was also a good player, a power forward for the Big Green. Great person for sure and he knew the game better than anyone else on the team. I saw him get hit from behind and break his neck. Thompson was never so quiet. His hockey career was over with that hit, but it also created another calling for him.

I think that Brian understands the value of a shifty and under sized forward. I also think Scott understands the value of a strong power forward. Recruiting is to me a game, there is a list that all coaches have and they go after them. Some seasons you land a JVR and most seasons you don't.

I think you need both styles actually. You need a guy that can land the power forward and a guy that gets the Jason Krog player. Do they have that now? I don't think so. I am just speaking of the coaches that have played a forward position and what that can recruit based upon what the really know. As far as a D recruiter is concerned, maybe they have one I don't really know.

I don't think Scott is wrong in his roll there, but I would love to see some help with a guy like Brian. So, someone win the Loto, pay for those two to be your forward recruiting guys and let the team rise up the rankings. Or, hire one of them as the head coach. I just don't think Umile is the man to lead the way. Hope it works out for you guys, you are awesome fans. I will always cheer for UNH, when they are not playing (and usually beating) Dartmouth.

Cheers!

bomberhockey
04-08-2012, 07:30 AM
It seems admin is the fault for not securing the talent that Borek and others have recruited. Much like the hockey club is concerned, the other parts must be part of a team. If they recruit them, it's for a reason. So, admin please help to close the deal.

That being said, I remember Brian Mccloskey as a player for Dartmouth. He was great and wore the #10 for the Big Green. He was small but shifty. Loved to watch him play, we was a star on a great team. He took a slap shot from the point to the face, before the helmets had a full face mask. I was a kid, but I thought it killed him. He came back to wear a half shield later in the season. Warrior, that would have laid me out for good!

Now, Scotty Borek was also a good player, a power forward for the Big Green. Great person for sure and he knew the game better than anyone else on the team. I saw him get hit from behind and break his neck. Thompson was never so quiet. His hockey career was over with that hit, but it also created another calling for him.

I think that Brian understands the value of a shifty and under sized forward. I also think Scott understands the value of a strong power forward. Recruiting is to me a game, there is a list that all coaches have and they go after them. Some seasons you land a JVR and most seasons you don't.

I think you need both styles actually. You need a guy that can land the power forward and a guy that gets the Jason Krog player. Do they have that now? I don't think so. I am just speaking of the coaches that have played a forward position and what that can recruit based upon what the really know. As far as a D recruiter is concerned, maybe they have one I don't really know.

I don't think Scott is wrong in his roll there, but I would love to see some help with a guy like Brian. So, someone win the Loto, pay for those two to be your forward recruiting guys and let the team rise up the rankings. Or, hire one of them as the head coach. I just don't think Umile is the man to lead the way. Hope it works out for you guys, you are awesome fans. I will always cheer for UNH, when they are not playing (and usually beating) Dartmouth.

Cheers!

China good observation and thanks for lending us some of your Dartmouth guys to coach at UNH, starting with Charlie Holt. I disagree a little about Borek bringing in little shifty guys, his first recruit was, McFlicker,also, DeSimone, Dries,Moses, Block,Goumas, etc. He does go after bigger guys, but usually not at the expense of speed. Borek's gone after the bigger guys and names in the Yandel, JVR, Bourque, Kessell, etc. and got under recruited guys like Butler that became bid names(credit to Butler's hard work). I think Borek just looks for kids who have a presence around the puck and like to go to the net. McCloskey no doubt went for the smaller, big ice players, but if big guys had speed he wasn't adverse to them either.

C-H-C
04-08-2012, 10:40 AM
It seems admin is the fault for not securing the talent that Borek and others have recruited. Much like the hockey club is concerned, the other parts must be part of a team. If they recruit them, it's for a reason. So, admin please help to close the deal.

That being said, I remember Brian Mccloskey as a player for Dartmouth. He was great and wore the #10 for the Big Green. He was small but shifty. Loved to watch him play, we was a star on a great team. He took a slap shot from the point to the face, before the helmets had a full face mask. I was a kid, but I thought it killed him. He came back to wear a half shield later in the season. Warrior, that would have laid me out for good!

Now, Scotty Borek was also a good player, a power forward for the Big Green. Great person for sure and he knew the game better than anyone else on the team. I saw him get hit from behind and break his neck. Thompson was never so quiet. His hockey career was over with that hit, but it also created another calling for him.

I think that Brian understands the value of a shifty and under sized forward. I also think Scott understands the value of a strong power forward. Recruiting is to me a game, there is a list that all coaches have and they go after them. Some seasons you land a JVR and most seasons you don't.

I think you need both styles actually. You need a guy that can land the power forward and a guy that gets the Jason Krog player. Do they have that now? I don't think so. I am just speaking of the coaches that have played a forward position and what that can recruit based upon what the really know. As far as a D recruiter is concerned, maybe they have one I don't really know.

I don't think Scott is wrong in his roll there, but I would love to see some help with a guy like Brian. So, someone win the Loto, pay for those two to be your forward recruiting guys and let the team rise up the rankings. Or, hire one of them as the head coach. I just don't think Umile is the man to lead the way. Hope it works out for you guys, you are awesome fans. I will always cheer for UNH, when they are not playing (and usually beating) Dartmouth.

Cheers!

It's not really an either/or situation. Tyler Kelleher is a "shifty, undersized" forward who can score goals and set up goals. Shane Eiserman, on the other hand, is a classic power forward who can score goals. Both were recruited by Coach Borek. John Henrion is on the shifty, undersized side but he hasn't yet lived up to his potential. Greg Burke is a power forward who has been held back by injuries. And there isn't a more shifty forward in the college game than John Gaudreau. If complications with the Admissions Office had not developed, he may very well have been skating for UNH.

Hopefully, UNH will decide as an institution that it wants to have high academic standards and elite athletic programs. Those are not incompatible goals.

bomberhockey
04-08-2012, 11:49 AM
Hopefully, UNH will decide as an institution that it wants to have high academic standards and elite athletic programs. Those are not incompatible goals.

Exactly, One can only hope!!

carltonbarrett
04-08-2012, 11:55 AM
Somewhere, someplace, in some trailer no doubt, there must be one real ornery, disappointed, near suicidal, hungover bobo :D:p

Nifty16
04-08-2012, 01:29 PM
FYI UNH @ CC - 11/23/12

http://www.cctigers.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=101

read somewhere they are doing Denver in that trip, would think woul dmean a return trip for both to Durham. Any word who might be coming to the Whitt next year?