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RSTuthill
12-21-2011, 06:23 AM
Hockey East also has a rule that all new members must have an arena that seats 5,000 (I'm pretty sure) at the least.
I am quite sure that you and CHFAN222 are correct. But rules were made to be waived, at least temporarily. I do not see this as a big barrier, do you? I am sure that the consulting group can tie this detail down if HE is the direction they end up recommending.

rpi82
12-21-2011, 07:25 AM
I also expect that the consulting firm will tell them "Donor outreach, NOW!" even before their first report goes through.

This is the key to any program upgrade. Given the other needs within the department (e.g. the basketball practice facility), the tremendous expense (36 scholarships plus facilities) and the uncertainty surrounding the BE and its future revenue streams (any new TV contract will undoubtedly include a provision for renegotiation if more teams leave), the upgrade will only happen if targeted donations are identified as at Penn State. In the best case scenario for the Huskies the AD has identified the donor and the report is necessary to quantify the costs. In the more likely case they'll shop the report to potential donors. How much conflict that would create with BB fund-raising and how long HE would wait (it would take a number of years if forced to get in line behind the BB facility) are major issues.

CHFAN222
12-21-2011, 08:22 AM
I am quite sure that you and CHFAN222 are correct. But rules were made to be waived, at least temporarily. I do not see this as a big barrier, do you? I am sure that the consulting group can tie this detail down if HE is the direction they end up recommending.

There are a few other things that HE would need to consider before waiving that rule. The other things HE would look into to include but are not limited to:



Will UCONN be financially viable and competitive as a program for many years to come?
Only way to guarantee that is if they endow scholarships for the program.

Will UCONN's fan base travel well to other HE schools and the HE tournament since this will have a major impact on revenue at member schools and the conference?
In the short term I think no. Long term possibly but that is a huge risk.

Will UCONN help with getting better TV deals (NESN, NBC Sports) and better ratings?
Short term probably not but long term there is a lot of potential due to the brand name.

Will they have a true rival in the conference?
This one is probably the simplest answer. Yes they could easily have a nice rivalry going with UMASS and I am sure UMASS would love it as well. Maybe a smaller one against BC but everyone in the conference already feels like they are rivals with BC.

kingdobbs
12-21-2011, 08:32 AM
Another major one is that after UVM joined HE the members of the conference voted on a rule mandating any new members have an arena with a capacity of at least 5,000 current members of course grand fathered in.

Saying it's a mandate is all well and good, but I think Hockey East has a little more sense than to be absolutely hidebound to that rule. Say, for example, a site study is done on behalf of UConn for upgrading Frietas to HEA standards, but for whatever reason, the study comes back saying that they cannot possibly fit more than 4000 seats in the area without seriously constricting sightlines, parking availability and existing structures (i.e. Morrone Stadium next door), and that there is no suitable spot on campus or near enough to it. Will Hockey East really say "No, thanks?" if that's the only part where UConn falls short of standard? Would they do the same thing for a long established program like Miami or Cornell, if said schools were to ever apply for membership?


This is the key to any program upgrade. Given the other needs within the department (e.g. the basketball practice facility), the tremendous expense (36 scholarships plus facilities) and the uncertainty surrounding the BE and its future revenue streams (any new TV contract will undoubtedly include a provision for renegotiation if more teams leave), the upgrade will only happen if targeted donations are identified as at Penn State. In the best case scenario for the Huskies the AD has identified the donor and the report is necessary to quantify the costs. In the more likely case they'll shop the report to potential donors. How much conflict that would create with BB fund-raising and how long HE would wait (it would take a number of years if forced to get in line behind the BB facility) are major issues.

That's why I'm saying to do it right they've got to get possible donors on board now, who would be willing to commit sight unseen because they want to see hockey at the school, rather than wait for the consultants to release their report, and I think the consultants will tell them to start yesterday.

Nick Papagiorgio
12-21-2011, 09:38 AM
Will UCONN's fan base travel well to other HE schools and the HE tournament since this will have a major impact on revenue at member schools and the conference?
In the short term I think no. Long term possibly but that is a huge risk.


As far as travelling goes, I'm not sure it's all that big of a deal for regular season games and QF games. A lot of these schools do well with attendance with minimal travelling fans - that's not to say that HE schools don't travel well, many do but we don't see it until the playoffs and NCAAs roll around ... In other words, they fill up most of their arena with their own fans and only rely on a small % of attendance from opposing fans (not to be confused with big nonpartisan crowds that spike attendance in certain places with capacity that show up when the big boys are in town). When it comes to the HE tournament, it isn't really relevant since Yukon probably wouldn't get out of the QFs for the next what? 20 years? And I'll throw in that they will be a tremendous drag on attendance at the Garden if they do make it by some way of a miracle because of the NCAA bounceyball tournament that coincides with it. That will suck any Uconn yahoo sports fan to the nearest bar or couch to watch their hoops game. We saw some weak BC crowds at this tournament before back when BC had a team that resembled a D1 squad and was in the tournament (2001 was particularly relevant as they played USC that same night as the championship game vs. Providence).

All in all a pretty good post though.

It would take a large donation to get the ball rolling and even then it is a big uphill climb to even get respectable.

I'd rather see HE stays where it is and look to get more OOC games than adding a 12th team for the sake of adding a team.

CHFAN222
12-21-2011, 12:00 PM
As far as travelling goes, I'm not sure it's all that big of a deal for regular season games and QF games. A lot of these schools do well with attendance with minimal travelling fans - that's not to say that HE schools don't travel well, many do but we don't see it until the playoffs and NCAAs roll around ... In other words, they fill up most of their arena with their own fans and only rely on a small % of attendance from opposing fans (not to be confused with big nonpartisan crowds that spike attendance in certain places with capacity that show up when the big boys are in town). When it comes to the HE tournament, it isn't really relevant since Yukon probably wouldn't get out of the QFs for the next what? 20 years? And I'll throw in that they will be a tremendous drag on attendance at the Garden if they do make it by some way of a miracle because of the NCAA bounceyball tournament that coincides with it. That will suck any Uconn yahoo sports fan to the nearest bar or couch to watch their hoops game. We saw some weak BC crowds at this tournament before back when BC had a team that resembled a D1 squad and was in the tournament (2001 was particularly relevant as they played USC that same night as the championship game vs. Providence).

All in all a pretty good post though.

It would take a large donation to get the ball rolling and even then it is a big uphill climb to even get respectable.

I'd rather see HE stays where it is and look to get more OOC games than adding a 12th team for the sake of adding a team.

Ya I realize that most of the attendance is from home team fans but I thought it'd be worth noting. I mean if a team can join HE and say that they will usually bring 300-500 of their fans/students/alum to come to a road game than that is a decent amount of money and something a lot of schools would enjoy to have. The only schools I can think of in HE that can do that are UNH , Maine, and when UVM when they where good. BU and BC travel pretty well especially to each others schools and Northeastern. Northeastern does travel alright for those games though not as well as those two. Not so sure about UMASS and UML.

komey1
12-21-2011, 07:09 PM
Actually, Joe, Union does not have to abide by D-3 rules like RIT does. Remember? They were grandfathered in. Union is D-1 in hockey just like our alma mater is. The only reason they call them "loans" is so they can still advertise that they do not give formal scholarships. But what they do give is still governed by D-1 rules.

I thought Union was not grandfathered in. They originally chose to play down to DIII and then LATER moved up to DI. In terms of scholarships they need to play by DIII rules.

Patman
12-21-2011, 09:17 PM
I thought Union was not grandfathered in. They originally chose to play down to DIII and then LATER moved up to DI. In terms of scholarships they need to play by DIII rules.

you are correct... the search for sreyalp naidanac lagelli never ends.

edit: UConn's success would depend on their commitment... if they made a penn state splash (unlikely) then they're immediately relevant... if its half-hearted they'll be trawling along the bottom half.

ADK11
12-21-2011, 11:21 PM
Actually, Joe, Union does not have to abide by D-3 rules like RIT does. Remember? They were grandfathered in. Union is D-1 in hockey just like our alma mater is. The only reason they call them "loans" is so they can still advertise that they do not give formal scholarships. But what they do give is still governed by D-1 rules.Union is not grandfathered and has to abide by D-3 rules.. You really don't remember Union president Roger Hull famously voting AGAINST the D-3 grandfathering a few years ago?????? That made for a lot of love with certain other ECAC schools.. but I guess if you're determined to believe that Union is cheating, I can't stop you..

RSTuthill
12-22-2011, 08:40 AM
Never said Union was cheating. Just because the pompous Roger Hull voted against does not mean they were not grandfathered in.

Btw, I was working in Schenectady and paying Union College tuitiion and fees for my son at the time. I remember the whole thing like it was yesterday. Great school, btw.

Jim
12-22-2011, 01:21 PM
Problem is they are in full Title 9 compliance and have to stay that way. Eighteen rides for men's hockey means 18 more rides in women's sports. Thirty six scholarships is a huge cost. Don't forget, they could just decide to eliminate men's hockey as economically unfeasible too.

You don't need to hire a consultant to eliminate sports. You just cut 'em. See Rutgers, Quinnipiac and any number of others. That would be throwing good money after bad. If they went this far they did so because someone wants to move the program up to a new level.

Jim
12-22-2011, 01:34 PM
Ya I realize that most of the attendance is from home team fans but I thought it'd be worth noting. I mean if a team can join HE and say that they will usually bring 300-500 of their fans/students/alum to come to a road game than that is a decent amount of money and something a lot of schools would enjoy to have. The only schools I can think of in HE that can do that are UNH , Maine, and when UVM when they where good. BU and BC travel pretty well especially to each others schools and Northeastern. Northeastern does travel alright for those games though not as well as those two. Not so sure about UMASS and UML.

LOL...It really isn't thatmuch difference travelling to BC, BU or Northeastern, Just depends on which Greenline stop you get off or wwhether you turn left or right on CommAve. It requires much more effort to get to Maine or UMass which is why they don't travel better to and from those places.

Patman
12-22-2011, 02:31 PM
You don't need to hire a consultant to eliminate sports. You just cut 'em. See Rutgers, Quinnipiac and any number of others. That would be throwing good money after bad. If they went this far they did so because someone wants to move the program up to a new level.

You usually hire consultants to axe popular programs... Manufacturing consent and all that

XCTiger
12-22-2011, 02:56 PM
Actually, Joe, Union does not have to abide by D-3 rules like RIT does. Remember? They were grandfathered in. Union is D-1 in hockey just like our alma mater is. The only reason they call them "loans" is so they can still advertise that they do not give formal scholarships. But what they do give is still governed by D-1 rules.

The "grandfathering" was for those DIII schools who were offering scholarships for hockey at the time that the rule was put in place. Union elected to not offer scolarships when they went DI, therefore can't change their minds to offer them now.

TonyTheTiger20
12-22-2011, 04:16 PM
Will they have a true rival in the conference?
This one is probably the simplest answer. Yes they could easily have a nice rivalry going with UMASS and I am sure UMASS would love it as well. Maybe a smaller one against BC but everyone in the conference already feels like they are rivals with BC.
I think BC/UConn would develop into a pretty reasonable rivalry. I really do.

You don't need to hire a consultant to eliminate sports. You just cut 'em. See Rutgers, Quinnipiac and any number of others. That would be throwing good money after bad. If they went this far they did so because someone wants to move the program up to a new level.This is a very good point.

Jim, you live in Middletown too?!

ExileOnDaytonStreet
12-22-2011, 04:24 PM
Notre Dame, UConn, Providence... Beware the dreaded BEHC!!!

CHFAN222
12-22-2011, 04:25 PM
I think BC/UConn would develop into a pretty reasonable rivalry. I really do.
This is a very good point.

Jim, you live in Middletown too?!

They could develop a reasonable rivalry... in football if that ever happens.

As far as hockey goes BC has much bigger and more historic opponents to be rivals with.

BU- No team will top them as BC's rival
Notre Dame- This is a growing rivalry and will only grow bigger when ND joins.
UNH/UMAINE/- Both HE rivals both have had great games against BC in HE tourney over the years.
Northeastern- The other Boston school but provides fun matchups such as last years Beanpot final.


My point is this. I don't think UCONN could top any of these schools for rivalries with BC.

TonyTheTiger20
12-22-2011, 04:31 PM
They could develop a reasonable rivalry... in football if that ever happens.

As far as hockey goes BC has much bigger and more historic opponents to be rivals with.

BU- No team will top them as BC's rival
Notre Dame- This is a growing rivalry and will only grow bigger when ND joins.
UNH/UMAINE/- Both HE rivals both have had great games against BC in HE tourney over the years.
Northeastern- The other Boston school but provides fun matchups such as last years Beanpot final.


My point is this. I don't think UCONN could top any of these schools for rivalries with BC.
I see what you're saying. Fair points.

Geez, there really are a lot of people who hate us, huh? haha

RSTuthill
12-22-2011, 07:03 PM
You usually hire consultants to axe popular programs... Manufacturing consent and all that
You beat me to it, Patman. In this case, axing a program after a wealthy alum just built the rink. But I highly doubt it.

I have been trying to figure out if the decision has already been made and the consultants are just going to put the independent evaluation imprimatur on it -- like in football -- or if this is really a clean sheet of paper evaluation. I have a hard time believing that this particular consulting group would recommend anything but going full bore, given their history, however. Gotta think they are going to recommend a pathway leading to application to HE for membership. No other outcome seems to make sense in my mind. UConn took at least two months to look at the program options internally. I think they already know what the conclusion will be, wouldn't you think?

And on a possible BC rivalry? If UConn ever gets into both HE and the ACC, that will be white hot compared to almost anything now. And they will schedule a hockey game on the evening of the afternoon football game just to intensify it. The football rivalry was already almost out of control by the time BC left for the ACC even though UConn was not quite as good as BC at that point in time.

Patman
12-22-2011, 10:12 PM
The BCers will disagree... Both sides hate each other so much on cultural lines they can't not be rivals. The anger at the disagreement is sign enough.