Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

So you agree that the implimentation of this rule is an occassion for the placement of BLAME, not praise. You agree that this rule is something for which nobody would want to take the BLAME. You agree that this rule is so unpleasant and improper that whoever dreamed up this thing -- be it Minnesota, Herb Brooks, or Charlie Chaplin -- should be assigned BLAME. BLAME which denotes poor conduct, poor decision making, and poor implimentation.

I feel the same way. Once again, we agree.

Why are we arguing, then. Why not just end the rule and end the ban? Nothing more to argue about, right? My mention of Minnesota was based on the well known belief that the CHL ban originated out of Minnesota, and Marriucci in particular. But even if that not true, this rule is obviously nothing you want to take ownership of, right?

So why defend it? In fact, you aren't defending it. In fact, you are getting hot under the collar at the mere thought, the mere mention, by some random dude in Sault Ste. Marie, that somebody from or in Minnesota, 40 years ago, had a hand in getting this rule passed. But lets leave that aside -- because obviously the mere mention of Minnesota in anything but pretty colors seems to trigger a curious response akin to a monkey stepping on a live wire -- you see this rule as so bad that you don't want it associated with your hockey heros of old.

Good.

Lets drop the rule -- as we argree. Its a win-win.

I don't think I've had time to even discuss the merits of the rule in this forum. I've been too busy responding to your delusional rants. Still waiting for you to stop skirting the fact that you are absolutely wrong about the basis of the rule being Minnesota Hockey. I can keep pulling you back on topic all day pal. Admit you're wrong about that, then we can talk about the merits of the rule.

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I too wish I had the numbers, but am going off of what I have read in numerous sources (one of which I posted a link to). If you want to call these sources inaccurate, that is fine, but I have yet to see anything that definatively proves that they are wrong.

Well I just demonstrated a sample of two NHL teams that doesn't show NCAA equating CHL for NHL development. Eaves in that article you linked to pulls that number apparently out of the air. Just because lots of people say you need 7 or 8 glasses of water everyday doesn't make it a fact (If you look it up, and I have, there is no scientific basis for that fact that seemingly 'everybody knows'). The IIHF did a detailed study over several years showing Europeans average between 25-30% of NHL players. Their study ended in 2006. I read it today on the IIHF website. I accept that as a fact (and agree the ratios for NHL players may have changed since 2006 due to the rise of the KHL ...). But no offense, just because Eaves says something to a writer doesn't make it a fact.

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Well I just demonstrated a sample of two NHL teams that doesn't show NCAA equating CHL for NHL development. Eaves in that article you linked to pulls that number apparently out of the air. Just because lots of people say you need 7 or 8 glasses of water everyday doesn't make it a fact (If you look it up, and I have, there is no scientific basis for that fact that seemingly 'everybody knows'). The IIHF did a detailed study over several years showing Europeans average between 25-30% of NHL players. Their study ended in 2006. I read it today on the IIHF website. I accept that as a fact (and agree the ratios for NHL players may have changed since 2006 due to the rise of the KHL ...). But no offense, just because Eaves says something to a writer doesn't make it a fact.

Take it up with Mike Eaves or anyone else in a position to comment on the topic. I don't have the numbers, and so far neither do you. Although, the IIHF study seems to agree with the statements I've read that 1/3 of NHL players are from the CHL, 1/3 from Europe, and 1/3 from the NCAA.

And by your logic, I should trust you because what Mike Eaves says might not be right? Who are you and what assurances do I have that you are right?

[SanTropez]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I don't think I had time to even discuss the merits of the rule in this forum. I've been too busy responding to your delusional rants. Still waiting for you to stop skirting the fact that you are absolutely wrong about the basis of the rule being Minnesota Hockey. I can keep pulling you back on topic all day pal. Admit you're wrong about that, then we can talk about the merits of the rule.

The topic is the NCAA ban on CHL players. If you'd like to discuss the merits of the Minnesota youth hockey development system, please feel free. You can even start your own thread. People might even want to read it and join into the topic. Heck, there might even be a few random Minnesotans who want to play, too. Thats great.

BUt, as we now know (right?) this is a thread about the NCAA ban on CHL players.

This topic might include, perhaps, a discussion as to why that ban exists. It might include a discussion about whether the ban is good or bad. It might include opnions from good posters who feel strongly on the topic, or are just bored at work and feel not-so-strong-but-like-to-debate. As for the origination of the rule, it came from Minnesota -- which should not be a problem for you if you like the rule, right? I mean, if you like the rule, then take pride and ownership in the creation of such a fine legislative fiat that comes from your little state. Congrads. But if you feel that the assignment of the origination of the rule is improperly placed on Minnesota -- but you dislike the rule anyhow -- then why worry about Minnesota youth hockey or any of that discussion (which, as noted, can be thoroughly discussed in another thread at your leisure)? Why not just eliminate the rule and cleanse history of its origination, regardless of its geographic location?

Yes, I think we have a solution. Drop the rule, right? You wouldn't want that dirty blame-ridden rule to sully your heros, right? Even by inference, right? Its such a bad rule you wouldn't want that, right?

There we go.

A handshake, a cigar, and a good scotch to celebrate the coming together of minds for a common good.

Strong work everyone. Strong work today. Much accomplished.

Next up: The Greek banking crisis.

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Take it up with Mike Eaves or anyone else in a position to comment on the topic. I don't have the numbers, and so far neither do you. Although, the IIHF study seems to agree with the statements I've read that 1/3 of NHL players are from the CHL, 1/3 from Europe, and 1/3 from the NCAA.

And by your logic, I should trust you because what Mike Eaves says might not be right? Who are you and what assurances do I have that you are right?

Don't agree with your math. The IIHF study (which was all about why young Europeans should develop in Europe and not in Major Junior or the AHL) gives percentages of Euros in the NHL. That's it. It doesn't speak to percentages of CHL/NCAA. If we accept that Euros were averaging 25-30% of the NHL up to 2006, that leaves 70-75% of the NHL to divvy up between the NCAA and CHL. I'd like to see you provide a source that somehow that is split equally between the NCAA and CHL, because I'm not seeing it.

As for me, you can easily reproduce my sample of Boston and Vancouver and get the same results.

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The topic is the NCAA ban on CHL players. If you'd like to discuss the merits of the Minnesota youth hockey development system, please feel free. You can even start your own thread. People might even want to read it and join into the topic. Heck, there might even be a few random Minnesotans who want to play, too. Thats great.

BUt, as we now know (right?) this is a thread about the NCAA ban on CHL players.

This topic might include, perhaps, a discussion as to why that ban exists. It might include a discussion about whether the ban is good or bad. It might include opnions from good posters who feel strongly on the topic, or are just bored at work and feel not-so-strong-but-like-to-debate. As for the origination of the rule, it came from Minnesota -- which should not be a problem for you if you like the rule, right? I mean, if you like the rule, then take pride and ownership in the creation of such a fine legislative fiat that comes from your little state. Congrads. But if you feel that the assignment of the origination of the rule is improperly placed on Minnesota -- but you dislike the rule anyhow -- then why worry about Minnesota youth hockey or any of that discussion (which, as noted, can be thoroughly discussed in another thread at your leisure)? Why not just eliminate the rule and cleanse history of its origination, regardless of its geographic location?

Yes, I think we have a solution. Drop the rule, right? You wouldn't want that dirty blame-ridden rule to sully your heros, right? Even by inference, right? Its such a bad rule you wouldn't want that, right?

There we go.

A handshake, a cigar, and a good scotch to celebrate the coming together of minds for a common good.

Strong work everyone. Strong work today. Much accomplished.

Next up: The Greek banking crisis.

Still waiting for you to admit you have absoutely no factual evidence to support your asinine comment that Minnesota Hockey is soley responsible for CHL players not being allowed to play in the NCAA.

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Don't agree with your math. The IIHF study (which was all about why young Europeans should develop in Europe and not in Major Junior or the AHL) gives percentages of Euros in the NHL. That's it. It doesn't speak to percentages of CHL/NCAA. If we accept that Euros were averaging 25-30% of the NHL up to 2006, that leaves 70-75% of the NHL to divvy up between the NCAA and CHL. I'd like to see you provide a source that somehow that is split equally between the NCAA and CHL, because I'm not seeing it.

As for me, you can easily reproduce my sample of Boston and Vancouver and get the same results.

You missed my point. Eaves said the breakdown was 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. Your study indicated that roughly 1/3 of NHL players are from Europe. That is inline with Eaves comments. I recognize that it didn't have anything to do with the NCAA.

And sorry, but I trust Eaves more than I trust you. No offense.

[hobeydog]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

If you want to see how aggressive CHL teams are in signing NCAA players, go to the Sarnia Sting site and watch the video of their presser announcing the signing of Connor Murphy.


sarniasting.com

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I guess he doesn't understand percentages.

Not to worry, I understand statistics. I also appreciate that the two states have very different demographics. One way or another, Michigan hockey doesn’t need me to cheerlead for it. I am still waiting for a reasonable justification for excluding CHL players from NCAA hockey. While I absolutely hate the actions of Mr. Miller, Murphy, Tinordi, Boucher, etc., I acknowledge that it is time to swallow some pride and to modify this outdated rule.

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Not to worry, I understand statistics. I also appreciate that the two states have very different demographics. One way or another, Michigan hockey doesn’t need me to cheerlead for it. I am still waiting for a reasonable justification for excluding CHL players from NCAA hockey. While I absolutely hate the actions of Mr. Miller, Murphy, Tinordi, Boucher, etc., I acknowledge that it is time to swallow some pride and to modify this outdated rule.

There is a difference between cheerleading and defending. And you'll get my thoughts on the merits of the CHL rule as soon I get an admission that the assertions that Minnesota Hockey is to blame for the rule is unfounded. Though I have already outlined my initial thoughts on the subject in one of my prior posts.

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

You missed my point. Eaves said the breakdown was 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. Your study indicated that roughly 1/3 of NHL players are from Europe. That is inline with Eaves comments. I recognize that it didn't have anything to do with the NCAA.

And sorry, but I trust Eaves more than I trust you. No offense.

This Hockey News story http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/s...e=campbell1113 looks at the CHL and NCAA cohort of 1988-89. While it was "updated" in 2007, the writer analyzed the 88-89 group. Would like a more recent study, but that's what we have. For that cohort the writer says he's measuring who made the NHL within nine years. He finds that out of that cohort, the CHL produced 79 NHLers and the NCAA 34. Not exactly a 1:1 ratio.

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

This Hockey News story http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/s...e=campbell1113 looks at the CHL and NCAA cohort of 1988-89. While it was "updated" in 2007, the writer analyzed the 88-89 group. Would like a more recent study, but that's what we have. For that cohort the writer says he's measuring who made the NHL within nine years. He finds that out of that cohort, the CHL produced 79 NHLers and the NCAA 34. Not exactly a 1:1 ratio.

Thanks for looking that up. Interestnig read. Although, I don't think anyone is asserting that the NCAA was producing as much NHL talent as the CHL back in the late 80's.

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Thanks for looking that up. Interestnig read. Although, I don't think anyone is asserting that the NCAA was producing as much NHL talent as the CHL back in the late 80's.

So you are presuming that the NCAA has made huge strides since 1989. Fine. And you are basing that growth in percentage perhaps on the number of NCAAers who went in the first round of the NHL draft this year?

The percentage of Euros in the NHL has dropped since 2006. In 2009-10 it was 23.8%. That's a little less than a quarter, and a lot less than a third. Most of this Euro drop, and it has been well discussed in the Canadian media, is because of Russians staying home in the KHL, and NHL teams becoming more reluctant to draft and sign Russians because they might bolt to the KHL.

It is generally accepted in Canada, a rule of thumb, that CHLers make up half the NHL. If that was the case, and I haven't yet found published stats to back that, the current ratio of CHL/NCAA/Euro in the NHL would be more like half/quarter/quarter. Which I believe someone stated earlier in the thread. But since you want facts over the a priori comments of Coach Eaves, I'll keep looking.

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

So you are presuming that the NCAA has made huge strides since 1989. Fine. And you are basing that growth in percentage perhaps on the number of NCAAers who went in the first round of the NHL draft this year?

The percentage of Euros in the NHL has dropped since 2006. In 2009-10 it was 23.8%. That's a little less than a quarter, and a lot less than a third. Most of this Euro drop, and it has been well discussed in the Canadian media, is because of Russians staying home in the KHL, and NHL teams becoming more reluctant to draft and sign Russians because they might bolt to the KHL.

It is generally accepted in Canada, a rule of thumb, that CHLers make up half the NHL. If that was the case, and I haven't yet found published stats to back that, the current ratio of CHL/NCAA/Euro in the NHL would be more like half/quarter/quarter. Which I believe someone stated earlier in the thread. But since you want facts over the a priori comments of Coach Eaves, I'll keep looking.

The NCAA has made some big strides since the late 80's, and that is based off of more than just the past year's draft. USA Hockey has grown by leaps and bounds since the late 80's, and so has the number of Americans in the NHL. I'm not saying I have the numbers, because I don't, but a number of articles that I have read, including the one I referenced that quoted Eaves, have mentioned that the NCAA has caught up to the CHL in terms of the number of NHL players it is developing. While I don't discredit the fact that there is a possibility that these sources may be wrong, I haven't seen anything concrete to dispute them.