RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

[BC/HE]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

Burgie and Jasma, I respect your difference of opinion but I must include a few facts to support what I have said.

Quinnipiac's rink seats only 3286, slightly more than Providence, and also only more than Merrimack which by the way is all chair seats now.
RPI's rink capacity(approx. 5200) would be in the bottom half of Hockey East, while they are on top in the ECAC.
UML has a beautiful 6500 seat rink. You must not have ever been there to say that the Q has a better rink. There is no comparison between Hockey East rinks and ECAC rinks.
Merrimack, Providence and Vermont rinks are far below the rest of Hockey East but they are comparable or even better than many or most ECAC rinks.

Academics according to USNews: Notre Dame 19, BC 31, RPI 41, BU 56, NU 69, UVM 94, UMass 99, UNH 104, Clarkson 124, Maine 159, and UML 183.
Providence is #2 North Regional University only behind Villanova, Quinnipiac 9. Liberal Arts schools: Colgate 21, Union 41, SLU 55, Merrimack 174. Sure Merrimack is on the bottom here but don't dismiss academics at UVM and Providence.

National Titles ECAC teams: total of 5, Cornell and RPI 2 each and Harvard 1, none in the last 22 years and only 2 in the last 40. Hockey East teams: 11, BU 5, BC 4, and Maine 2. 7 in the last 18 years. Hockey East teams have been runnerup 12 times since the ECAC last won it, the ECAC only once the year after Harvard won. No comparison between the leagues at present.

Comparing teams to the bottom dwellers is not going to get you admission to the league, you have to bring something with you. That is why RPI is a fit and not Quinnipiac. RPI is a geographic fit if you ignore the NY state line.They already come to Boston Providence and New Hampshire so they actually would have no more travel than they have in the ECAC. They are close by to the vast majority of Hockey East schools even moreso than Maine and Vermont. That is the point how they fit geograhic wise.

EDIT: Should Hockey East go to 12 teams it would likely mean a 22 game schedule leaving lots of room for those traditional rivalries as well.

[REDaero91]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

nothing to do with RPI hockey but watch this kid handle the puck....WOW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32aEQ...eature=related

That's unreal.

National Titles ECAC teams: total of 5, Cornell and RPI 2 each and Harvard 1, none in the last 22 years and only 2 in the last 40.

Hey. We're working on it.

And FWIW (2¢), I vote we stay in the ECAC.

[burgie12]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

Quinnipiac's rink seats only 3286

I would have to disagree with you on that. (sell-out = 3957)

don't dismiss academics at UVM and Providence.

Never dismissed the academics at Providence, I actually purposefully avoided them because they're an excellent private university. But, you got me on UVM.

No comparison (performance-wise) between the leagues at present.

No kidding. Everyone on these boards knows that going from the ECAC to the HEA is a step up performance-wise, you're not making a groundbreaking revelation there.

*Note* I'm moving your sentences out of order because it works better for the statements I'm going to make.

They are close by to the vast majority of Hockey East schools even moreso than Maine and Vermont.

I touched on this last time. This argument is useless. You are not kicking out Maine or Vermont. Why are you making this perfectly valid, yet absolutely pointless statement?

They already come to Boston Providence and New Hampshire so they actually would have no more travel than they have in the ECAC... That is the point how they fit geograhic wise.

No one is arguing that Rensselaer does not fit geographically or that the HEA is not a step up performance-wise. You are making arguments against no one. You had one statement that shows that the non-liberal arts schools are good academically, but the same report says that the ECAC liberal arts schools are superior. Never mind the fact that you didn't use any of the Ivies (ETA: their rankings, all "universities" Harvard: 1, Princeton: 2, Yale: 3, Dartmouth: 9, Brown: 15, Cornell: 15... why look at that, every single one of them is higher than Notre Dame ) and that I tried to show that, in the administrations' eyes, we are afraid of moving because of the perceived lower quality of academics and the lack of name recognition within Hockey East's ranks. Please address the concerns listed and stop making the same contentions that no one is disputing.

[Jasma]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

Jasma, I always respect your well reasoned takes but toatally disagree with this one. Zero chance that Notre Dame will join the ECAC. Second rate operation. Example 1 - Tourney in Atlantic City was a joke, Example 2 - Bryan Hicks, Feola, et al. Example 3 Can you see Notre Dame coming to play Union at that dump, Example 4 - Paul Stewart, enuff said.

I tread lightly here because I am not an alum so I know the feelings about Ivies but this is a move that would be welcomed by me. Imagine going to play BU after the slugfest we had with them this year on the next night. Would be in line with our great Coach Seth Appert's desire to play back to back nights. Of course this scenario has been thought about before under Adessa (going HE). The Tute would be much more likely to raise the third National Championship banner in HE because look at how many champs come from there (help recruiting,etc.). We could also spar with Nick P. , Steve F, etc. and the beantown contingent. Now I would enjoy that. I think Seth is the right guy at the right time to make a move like this. I believe my erstwhile brother will agree with me but that's it because dammit we have to play Clarkson twice a year .

I think you are right about Notre Dame and the ECAC, but my point was that the ECAC is a better fit than HE. However, I don't think ND would come east at all.

I also don't think RPI is going to HE. Much as many of us would like to see that happen, I think that ship sailed long ago. We are stuck with a second-rate league operation because the Ivies like it that way.

[BC/HE]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

Burgie, I was replying to both you and Jasma, so not all those points were aimed at you. Jasma replied in regards to the non Ivy academics so the Ivies were not part of the reply. Everyone knows the Ivies are superior academically, that is if you want an education indoctrinated with one sided liberalism. The point about Maine and Vermont has nothing to do with replacing them, it was aimed at how close RPI is geographic wise to Hockey East. The academic rankings are seperate lists. You cannot equate one to the other as they are different type schools. Jasma referred to the quality of a Providence education, so that was aimed there. The ECAC non Ivy teams are fooling themselves by trying to set themselves on an academic footing with the Ivies. Don't think for a minute that the Ivies look at it that way. Safety school must come up quite often when an Ivy plays a non Ivy. Sure overall it would be a drop academic wise but if the Ivies decide to drop the number of games or go on their own, a lot of ECAC teams will be left in the dust. They already mess up the schedules with their late starts and exam and break schedules. By the way, most Hockey East fans do not regard RPI as a good addition to Hockey East. In their eyes RPI suffers from a lack of name recognition. I disagree, I respect RPI both in the level of their academics and their hockey program.
EDIT: Don't forget that I was scorned for suggesting that RPI was still very much alive for an NCAA bid last year after their early exit from the ECAC playoffs.

[DrDemento]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

nothing to do with RPI hockey but watch this kid handle the puck....WOW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32aEQ...eature=related

I used to be able to do all that stuff-but then of course I had to wake up.

[Jasma]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

So, using the US News stats you sited, Colgate, Union, RPI and the Ivies still end up ahead of all the HE schools save BC and in some cases BU. That was my point. villanova is a major regionsl University while Providence is a regional college; though a very good one. I was not dismissing UVM or UMASS. They are good schools, just not quite at the level of the Ivies, Colgate or RPI.

You are right about the Lowell arena, however. I have not been there in some time and had forgotten that they have a new building. Still, Merrimack and Providence have terrible buildings.

The geography argument for RPI going to HE does not hold water. RPI is at the center of the ECAC geographically and would be at the extreme western edge of HE. They will always play Union, Clarkson and SLU, so moving to a new conference without at least one of those programs might be tough to sell, but many RPI fans would still like to see it happen. Don't hold your breath, however.

[AspyDad]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

I also don't think RPI is going to HE. Much as many of us would like to see that happen, I think that ship sailed long ago. We are stuck with a second-rate league operation because the Ivies like it that way.

Great post. Ur right road trip is too far for ND.

[AspyDad]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

This is an important article on expansion by HE. I read it a couple of days ago.
http://www.collegehockeynews.com/new..._expansion.php

I very rarely read CHN because of the Stewart/Klump affair and Mr. Wodon's response to it but this is worth reading.

[BC/HE]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

So, using the US News stats you sited, Colgate, Union, RPI and the Ivies still end up ahead of all the HE schools save BC and in some cases BU. That was my point. villanova is a major regionsl University while Providence is a regional college; though a very good one. I was not dismissing UVM or UMASS. They are good schools, just not quite at the level of the Ivies, Colgate or RPI.

You are right about the Lowell arena, however. I have not been there in some time and had forgotten that they have a new building. Still, Merrimack and Providence have terrible buildings.

The geography argument for RPI going to HE does not hold water. RPI is at the center of the ECAC geographically and would be at the extreme western edge of HE. They will always play Union, Clarkson and SLU, so moving to a new conference without at least one of those programs might be tough to sell, but many RPI fans would still like to see it happen. Don't hold your breath, however.

No where can you compare Colgate and Union to the major Universities, they are in different categories. Providence is ranked in the same category as Villanova, right behind them, 1 & 2.
Merrimack just completed a major upgrade with all chair seats and IIRC Providence is all chair seats as well although dated. From my point of view Vermont has the worst rink in Hockey East.
Being on the western edge of Hockey East is still closer than being in the center of the ECAC. Hockey East is the most tight knit geographic college hockey league by far.

[Wicked Slappaahs]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

Just chiming in-I don't see RPI going anywhere-unless you mean to the top of the ECAC standings. We are on the move alright-but within our old league and heading towards the top soon. Just my usual 2¢

Totally agree Doc. I'm having a hard time seeing how ND joining HE makes any kind of sense...but then again, I said something similar about having the ECSC tourney in Atl. City...

[troyboy]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

Just following up on what Jasma is saying. She's hit a lot of the points right on the head, but some of your comments are just ridiculous.

Their rink seats 4k, and, as she said, the amount of money / institutional investment that has been put in in the past five years is tremendous.

Your point is? You're not kicking out UVM or Maine. It's not like the HEA teams are talking about a trade of travel for less travel here.

Right, because we're traveling up to Canton / Potsdam for the scenery We're traveling to play hockey and the tradition / history / rivalry that we have with these two teams (well, at least Clarkson) would outweigh the fact that we only have to drive three-ish hours to UML / Merrimack, at least in my mind.

Valid point, but you're just explaining why RPI is supposedly a good fit for Hockey East, not why Hockey East (with its state schools, largely D-I athletic programs, and lack of academic name recognition) is a better fit for RPI than the ECAC (with Ivy / very highly regarded academic institutions, D-III athletic programs, and similar institution commitments to athletics).

*DISCLAIMER*
The following is baseless speculation and I have no proof of what I am about to say.
*DISCLAIMER*

I think that you have the athletic side of the Institute on your side (Appert might be on the fence, but probably Col. Knowlton) saying that we should join the HEA, but I doubt that you have the academic side of the Institute agreeing with you. Their desire to be seen as a top-tier school is based on name recognition, and I don't mean the "these teams have won national championships recently" name recognition... I mean the "we compete against these schools academically and athletically" name recognition. BC brings that to the table. But, God forbid if we're mentioned in the same breath as UVM / UMass / Maine. If you (and by you, I mean the HEA commissioner / other athletic directors) can come up with reasonable explanations that make sense to Shirley Ann Jackson (our president) as to how raising the league that we would be playing in would raise the school's reputation more than it would be hurt by not associating ourselves with the Ivies, then you might be one step closer to brining in a 12th team into Hockey East. But, beware, this is the same president that tried to kill Greek Life for no reason and disbanded the Faculty Senate for, again, almost no reason. So, best of luck with that.

Nothing is done witout a reason...maybe not a good reason but still a reason.....we really have to get off this who we associate ourselves with... RPI stands on its own we don't need to mingle with the blue bloods to be one of the best engineering colleges in the world regardless of whom we play on the atletic field(or ice in this instance) thats never gonna change..that's the crabby old white guy argument.Here's the question...is it important to the institute to have the hockey program in the national spotlight....play at the highest levels...and bring notariaty to the school...if the answer to that question is yes and I believe it is then as men and women of science as most of you are isn't the tradition to be forward looking ....pushing boundries... and exploring.If you subscribe to all of the above then HEA makes all the sense in the world,or at least pursuing it does.....Ivy's be ****ed were moving ahead thats OUR tradition !!!!!!!.As we all know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results.Hockey east IMO is the next level and logical...everyone has a personal opinion and thats mine.

[burgie12]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

is it important to the institute to have the hockey program in the national spotlight....play at the highest levels...and bring notariaty to the school

Sitting at the bottom of the table in the HEA is not going to bring notoriety to the school nor is it going to put it in the national spotlight. You can't assume that we'll come in and be instantly competitive. That is a fool's argument.

Hockey east IMO is the next level and logical...everyone has a personal opinion and thats mine.

I don't agree with the logic of how you came to that conclusion, but you're absolutely correct. Hockey East is a step higher and would be a great opportunity for the program. I would love to see us competing in a high-quality conference / association, even though it would absolutely kill me to throw away the Union / Clarkson / (lesser so) Cornell rivalries. However, I don't think that the administration believes it to be a prudent move and I don't see it happening. Period.

Being on the western edge of Hockey East is still closer than being in the center of the ECAC.

Being within four hours of everybody except for two geographical outliers (since we're assuming that Notre Dame is coming in, too) is better than being within four hours of everybody AND being literally next door to someone else?

EDIT: Don't forget that I was scorned for suggesting that RPI was still very much alive for an NCAA bid last year after their early exit from the ECAC playoffs.

Congratulations on being good at math?

[BC/HE]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

Sitting at the bottom of the table in the HEA is not going to bring notoriety to the school nor is it going to put it in the national spotlight. You can't assume that we'll come in and be instantly competitive. That is a fool's argument.

I don't agree with the logic of how you came to that conclusion, but you're absolutely correct. Hockey East is a step higher and would be a great opportunity for the program. I would love to see us competing in a high-quality conference / association, even though it would absolutely kill me to throw away the Union / Clarkson / (lesser so) Cornell rivalries. However, I don't think that the administration believes it to be a prudent move and I don't see it happening. Period.

Being within four hours of everybody except for two geographical outliers (since we're assuming that Notre Dame is coming in, too) is better than being within four hours of everybody AND being literally next door to someone else?

Vermont was in the same situation and they did not sink to the bottom, yet.
A 22 game schedule will leave you with plenty of games to play Union,Clarkson and Cornell.
In Hockey East most everyone would be within 3 hours except UNH 4 hours, 3 1/2 if they play you in Manchester. Maine and Notre Dame would be 2 hour flights with only one of them each year, the other would come to Troy. Of course the bus ride to South Bend is another 1 1/2 hours. Bangor International Airport is a short distance from Orono. Other than Union, UMass is the closest D1 Hockey school to RPI, not counting AIC. You could bring the whole school there and still not fill their massive arena.

[Ralph Baer]

Re: RPI Off-Season Thread 2011 Part II: The Bryce is Right

Today is 6 June 2011. There are 117 days until RPI's next game.


This is based upon 1 October for the start of next season.

That is the day that an exhibition game is supposedly scheduled.